THE BARGE

[worldstrider]

The Barge

As I have flown it awhile and let it be killed multiple times just to get a feel for what it can and can't do, here are the observations and recommendations I have. I do like the suggestion it be treated as a "one per clan/group" ship and think the price, lack of maneuver and thrust, docking difficulties and slow time to cruise are all appropriate and good.

Observations

First--the ship is designed truly for RP over all. It doesn't have to be a "combat pawnzor uberdeathship". It does need to be able to defend itself. Due to its size, the following liabilities exist in combat that the Barge really can't compensate for in any way and escorts can't help much either with these issues:

1. Strike Rates: Shot strike rates are quite high for enemies firing on the barge--almost 100%. this means if you fire ten shots within range, pretty much all ten hit--every time. This essentially gives other ships a bonus shooting at the barge--much like different versus various weapons does.
   
2. Silhouette: The size of the barge is great enough to allow hits at ranges weapons normally would have a 0% strike rate against. this means fighters--or any ship--can stay outside the range of the barge's guns and fire at leisure. It doesn't have thrust or maneuver to really evade.
   
3. Gun Convergence: The barge's great length (2km) means the fore and aft guns really don't sync. This means there are certain spots where you simply can't hit your target if you are firing all guns--the AI's convergence point in these areas will always be off your target. Its possible to set groups so you can have less convergence but then you are shooting fewer guns with less firepower and their is no "bingo" configuration that always works. This compounds the range/ease of hits by enemies outlined above.
   
4. Ally & Enemy NPCs-Spinning: Spinning is severe (fast enough to get me a "division by zero" effect one night when I "popped" loose from a debris piece while in cruise. The rotation of the front and back ends was great enough to get detected as a cheat). That example just illustrates how severe the spin is when rammed by NPCS. I literally was windmilled at ever increasing speed one night by four Xeno players who took turns ramming the aft end of the barge. Its the same effect as giving another spin to a playground carousel after it rotates around--each spin adds to the speed. NPCs--hostile and allied which want to "fly close" often do this very thing. The slow maneuver and turn make this more than just a firing problem. They can deflect your course so severely that its impossible to orient yourself on a consistent flight path which means you have no chance of evading at that point if pursued and can even be thrown into planets, debris, etc. that the barge can't navigate around.
   

So the barge can be killed by fighters standing out of range while it is randomly thrown about by NPCs faster than it can turn all while being unable to spot its guns on a target while this is happening. Now back to the role play part...

Example

Here's an example of cargo items I will have on my barge in future: Cryo chambers, Bioneural Packs, Quantum Multiplexors, Cardamine, Artifacts, Junker Pilots, Guard pilots, Wild Pilots, Hogosha Pilots, Xeno Pilots, Military Equipment, Scientists, Synthetic Marijuana, Battleship and Cruiser and Gunboat Captains, VIPs, Nomad and Minor and Greater Brains--and a few other items I won't include here.Each of these items will number in the hundreds and most will be over or at 1000 each. That's not only expensive credit wise but time wise. A lot of these things take a lot of traveling to get. Now the idea of such a juicy cargo was to use my RP to create an attraction that might entice other groups to want to interact with the ship. All great and the barge gets a wonderful response already.

Caveat

...but take the issues I mentioned above and think how impractical it is to spend that much wealth and time putting that cargo together only to have it lost within the average minute it takes the barge to die (I currently have Mk VIII basic armor on it). So if the barge will get to be exposed enough to be really fun in play, it has to be beefed up...or its never going to be seen.

My current thoughts...

It will need a hull on a level not seen in any other ship here and an increase in bats and especially bots or it will need a gunboat/cruiser/battleship(?) shield (I think that is the easiest implementation). It also needs at least a smattering of capital turrets so it can add range and some potential tracking to its weaponry. My suggestion is to give it a four forward and a four aft gunboat class weapons and leave or remove any transport turrets as desired as secondary or no batteries. If the power is kept high enough to effectively fire missiles/razors, etc., it can at least have a fighting chance in combat. Getting shot to pieces beyond your weapons range by even small ships is no fun for anyone and also requires no skill.

Spinning--HAS to be fixed. That is hands down the greatest issue. This is really going to cause people to drop the ship if it isn't addressed.

Supernova equipped fighters/bombers easily take the barge down at present. Mine is "hiding" at the moment while accumulating loot from Kusari NPCs killed by allies and will try to sneak back home but if it gets spotted its inevitable that it's dead. I can't imagine it surviving. While I can live with this and still eat breakfast, I know many players here could not. So while we are in the beta, I want to show off the ship and let people have fun with it (even blowing it up) but I also want it to work for players who get it.

A last suggestion...totally just for fun and not a balance issue...

The barge has a really cool explosion. I love it (heck--its me blowing up but it still fun). I went through a jumphole once while in the "death sequence--just awesome. Can we consider giving it a kick-butt explosive damage when it dies to those who are close? I don't now how this might affect the game but it would be a hoot. "Ruuuuuun! She's gonna bloooow!!!". Consider it at least;)

Thanks for adding the ship--its hands down my favorite to play with. Hope ya'll have time to tweak it.

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[Sprolf]

Interesting how we have had two threads tonight about the spinning problem.
I think that might be a call to action, if nothing else.

And I agree with you on the point of the explosion.
Anything else, I can't really say, as I've never flown a Barge.

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[mjolnir]

Armor - yes it can get some
Shield - no, cause for example BS shield means automatic invulnerability to for example 1 bomber (due to regen)
Spining - it's basically on the limit now, so it can't be fixed much
Guns - no it's really not meant to hurt anything... ever
Explosion - yes, but it might not come at once as it needs some tweaking

Mine is "hiding" at the moment while accumulating loot from Kusari NPCs killed by allies and will try to sneak back home but if it gets spotted its inevitable that it's dead. I can't imagine it surviving. While I can live with this and still eat breakfast, I know many players here could not.

a) From what I heard you basically use it as a Junker base for "invading" Kusari. So as a sort of assault ship instead of a ship that rarely ever leaves the safest area for your faction. Something that it was not made for.

b) This is why it's limited ship for RP purposes, so if many players can't live with the thought that it won't survive, that's frankly their problem.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Jinx]

hitpoints:
i made a thread asking for an appropriate amount of hitpoints. - due to the size but yet civlian use - i believe that 1.500.000 ( like the zoner juggernaut ) works. - but a fight against the barge must still be entertaining. - so giving it too much turns a fight into a boring target practice against a really really dull target. - at the same time, the barge shouldn t die quickly. - when it is escorted by an appropriate amount of ships ( and for that matter, i imagine more than the appropriate battleship escort ) it should really die last - or that slowly that attackers cannot just focus on the barge and ignore the escorts


spinning:
- it was said - cannot be fixed. - however - since there is a lot of positive feedback on increasing collision damage of small ships against large ships - i can imagine it to be like battleships - and seriously ( not one hit but close enough ) damage a fighter when the fighter rams into it.

one is surprised how much "unintentional" ramming ceases when the ramming ship blows up upon touching.

guns:
no way - this is basicly a superstructure with huge containers. - weapons come in the shape of escorts. - it is one of those ships that i actually DO imagine to have 2 destroyers as escorts and swarms of fighters.

shield:
if it was possible i d love it to have several shield sections. - meaning you can drain the front shield but the rear shield still works. - too bad that doesn t work in FL.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[NonSequitor]

Just to make things clear on the onset, I don't have a Junker character nor are any of my characters particularily "buddy-buddy" with any Junkers.

Shield - no, cause for example BS shield means automatic invulnerability to for example 1 bomber (due to regen)

The Barge is humongous. The thing probably has enough of a gravity well to pull debris into its orbit. A vessel of that size and caliber would have the capacity to generate a BS-class shield. It's certainly not a far-fetched request.

Ok, so one bomber would have problems killing it. Is that a tragedy? Most of time bombers fly in packs of 2+ anyway.

And I do recall that the Order Light Carrier now has a BS shield. That ship's RP is related to tactical operations' support, at least to my understanding. Didn't they have a similiar issue of "survivability" with the original cruiser shield?

Guns - no it's really not meant to hurt anything... ever

Ok. The Junkers pool their finite time and resources together and construct a one-of-a-kind ship. Now, logic dictates, that if a faction is going to create this kind of ship, they also would have taken into consideration its inate defenses. Now, I don't know what class of weaponry you can install on that thing currently, but I would think that cruiser-class turrets would be reasonable. Not many hardpoints, mind you, but enought turrets to keep the enemy on his toes, while the escorts do their job.

In any case, I don't think giving the Barge some buffage would result in much handwringing because:

a) I don't see these ships being spammed. At least not to the degree we see in other cap-heavy factions.
b) Bombers kill everything on this server.
c) It's really, really hard to miss.

Good luck, Tinkerbell.

[El Nino]

Probably Armor could be raised, not Bott supply though... to some 10 mil, and then repair ships could start poping by fixing it... as for shields... who cares about those,..

Also weapons gunboat missile turrets might be the best weapon for it. even with battleship turrets it couldn't hit ****...

So that should be done yes, as far as spinfixing, I did it myself, it is just so big, and Freelancer physics so wrong it just doesn't work much at such large scales. Battleships for example have reached numerical instability (that's where all the shaking comes from on autopilot) Barge could go even beyond it and still spin. So it hardly can be done in a game that was intended to fly fighters only...

Perhaps a big whonking bonus to colision damage.

So More armor! GB Guns! Heavy GB powerplant, well that's about all...

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Donate to the Poor Pilot's Fundation via Sirius Bank /givecash GreenHawk 1000000 now, and support poor pilots sirius wide!
Skype: jure.grbec
My primary char: Jose El Nino - Corsair Elder captain of the SS Greenhawk

Currently Inactive due to pursuit of life long dreams, will be back...*edited* As promised am back.

[mjolnir]

A vessel of that size and caliber would have the capacity to generate a BS-class shield. It's certainly not a far-fetched request.

Ok, so one bomber would have problems killing it. Is that a tragedy? Most of time bombers fly in packs of 2+ anyway.

And I do recall that the Order Light Carrier now has a BS shield. That ship's RP is related to tactical operations' support, at least to my understanding. Didn't they have a similiar issue of "survivability" with the original cruiser shield?

A vessel of that size is too big to effectively support any shield tbh. Transort shield is there just to prevent npc and other "easy" damage. Also most of the barge is an empty cargo area, so it wouldn't make sense to shield that part at all actually.

One bomber not killing it kind of is a tragedy, cause it would mean it could be flown unescorted for large ammounts of time.

Order Carrier is still a combat ship. Barge is not.

Ok. The Junkers pool their finite time and resources together and construct a one-of-a-kind ship.

Barge is by no means a junker only ship right now. It's as generic as a Large Train.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Linkus]

And will be as rare as the Venator.

Honestly.

Where is the Roleplay in a ship like this being so EASY to blow up?

All it takes is a single bomber who can dodge to fire a supernova in it's general direction every so often. The escorts can't do squat.

Really, the thing is just too damn easy to kill.
It was meant to be hard to kill.
It's more like a joke than a ship at this stage.

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Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.

[mjolnir]

That's why armor got upped.

And yes it should be as rare as the Venator.

Escort certainly can't defend one with normal MK 8 armor no. Another interesting observation is that the small transport shield might actually be a better choice for it as it pops up much faster possibly blocking high damage guns (like SN).

I also like this quote:

[12:31:16] Mule says: I think it's wrong that this ship that was designed to be crap at fighting, cannot indeed fight

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[worldstrider]

Mule says: I think it's wrong that this ship that was designed to be crap at fighting, cannot indeed fight

Haha--"crap at" and "can't" are noteworthy distinctions. If I am only MOSTLY dead then there is still hope!

It had to be exposed getting into Kusari and it should be vulnerable then. No problem with it being a sitting duck trying to move. I actually wanted it to get attacked so I could see what tactics and issues would arise. Normally it won't be there. Phase II will be "sneaking" back with it. I'll see if I can pull that off (that time I don't want it to die).

One of the things I had hoped to use it for was group events where an enemy invades to "destroy the barge" and defenders try to protect it. Its so easy to kill that that's hard to see working. It doesn't matter if I "invade" Kusari or they "invade" Puerto Rico--they can still kill it easy if they focus on it. As Jinx suggested, it should take enough damage so attackers couldn't ignore escorts and focus on it for a quick kill.

My original ideal use was a ship that had no or a small shield but could take huge amounts of damage. I'm not a fan of a b-ship shield but a larger shield would soak off some of the copious missile and torp hits it takes--just increases its lifetime. Also don't want billions of bats and bots--just thinking of simple ways to extend it combat lifetime some. I actually like a small shiled with maybe a few more bats and bots as the best "fix".

The gunboat turrets were not meant to make it an offensive ship--just to give weps enough range to hit a fighter that was parked at stand off distance. I have literally had guys "park" and shoot snacs at it outside weps range (I have also managed to kill three careless fighter pilots in it but they don't let it happen twice).

A suggestion on the weapons that can reach other than capital class guns? Slave liner has custom transport guns--make some for the barge with extended range but make them take like five-hundred or a thousand cargo apiece in cargo space and have a high energy drain so smaller freighters don't willy-nilly mount them. Maybe call it a "rail gun" and give it an exceptional range and velocity--damage doesn't need to be more than average for a transport. Just to stop "lobbers" who simply "sit there".

I'll experiment with the spinning. I have tried some different systems just to see how practical it is in different environments. Heh--stay away from any teeny size rock debris fields. Making it have battleship sized collision damage would be great actually. Even "friendly" npcs are a liability at present.

Understood it will be a minority ship--as it should be. I am going to stretch its role at first to see what works and what might be improved--good experience for me and maybe something practical for all will come of it.

One of the fun things so far (as in adrenaline rushes) is when an enemy has almost found your location and your escorts dash to intercept just as you are almost at cruise charge. You are watching the seconds tick by hoping you make it.

I completely understand lots of things need to be done on the mod--I'm very content as is until time is free--the mega-explosion damage would be VERY COOL when you get the chance--as would some more hull I'll play more with the spinning and see what I can do as a workaround (I have an experiment in PR for example along that line). I am not trying to power play it--I actually am beta testing it just using rp to Justify it. When it is full in Kusari it will leave for home. Stay back you filthy Xenos!

Maybe I will mock up a gun as an example of the turret possibilities for it. I have tried a different sized shield before but I don't dock often enough to play around with that. We'll give another one a spin next time we get exploded. :)

Thanks for the reply. Haha--I would like ONE battleship mortar for the "gawkers" who like to fly into me because they want to see how close they can get. Grrrr! I promise to use it only for good (Why is there no "fingers crossed behind back" emoticon?).

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