' Wrote:That's the wrong question to ask. The correct question is : how does the denied/aggrieved/victimized person ever get his hands on sufficient evidence that he can submit to the Admins to prove that he is being denied a battleship for personal or non-roleplay related reasons?
Plain and simple, nobody ever will. The person being wronged will never have access to those PMs, those skype chats, or those screenshots where his application is denied for the wrong reasons. All he will ever see is the shallow mask of "roleplay" denying the application.
What actually happened is irrelevant to the practicalities of any appeal. The only thing that is relevant is the evidence that each side can submit about what happened.
And the fact is that no majority of Admins is ever going to over-rule a faction decision without evidence so conclusive that it cannot be denied or ignored, evidence that the wronged-party will never have and the Admins will never see.
But denials for personal reasons is simply a subset of a larger issue. What happens when a faction decides that within its concept of acceptable and reasonable roleplay all of the battleships that could exist already do, and therefore all future applications are denied? Or what happens if OPG wants a battleship and the Benitez and TBH say no? Or what happens when HF says no to a spyglass request, and I, as faction leader of the Lane Hackers, couldn't care less what they think and grant it? After empowering factions to make these decisions, don't be deceived into thinking that the Admins will then micromanage the criteria that every faction uses to make those decisions. We don't have the time, and we certainly will not have the willingness.
Or what about someone who wants to roleplay a renegade battleship, or a battleship with a commander who is rebellious to faction authority, or any sort of story that the faction finds unwelcome? Make no mistake, the factions will have such a wide latitude in determining what is reasonable, that there will effectively be no appeals. Otherwise, every single person who is turned down will make an appeal, and if you think Admin decision making is slow now for faction creations and special roleplay requests, just imagine how slow it will be for something like this. The vast majority of player requests we receive now barely get any attention (and those are relatively minor to this by comparison), and that isn't going to change in any positive way, especially not when the outcome involves stepping on the factions' toes to do it.
Appeals to the Admins is simply a tantalizing sop to lure in the unwary with a promise on a limit to power abuse. In practicality, it might as well not even exist. It will carry just as much weight as the contents of any complaint box in any bureaucratic office on planet Earth : zero. Doubt me? Take a look at the abuses that you personally know about around here, and then count the number of them that have resulted in negative Administrative consequences. The former outnumber the latter by a wide margin, or you aren't paying much attention.
I've seen from the inside the process of faction creation requests, special roleplay requests, and player appeals on a variety of issues. The concept of appeals here is a farce. I know it as a player. I know it as a faction leader. And I know it as an Admin. I oppose this proposal, but the chances of anyone winning my vote on appeal based on the necessary and objective standard of proof is practically non-existent. You might get my vote on some other basis, but it's unlikely to be on that one because I know how high the standard will be and I know that nobody will be able to meet it.
I can't help but be reminded of a series of famous lines that have come down from the 1930's. I'll paraphrase : "In Sirius, they came first for the liners, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a liner;
And then they came for the battleships, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a battleship;
And then they came for the destroyers, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a destroyer;
And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
But I guess this is the price you all get to pay to fix the problem.
Oh wait, what problem?
I almost forgot, nobody has even proven that there is a problem that this can fix, nor even remotely proven that it can fix it better than Admins taking badly behaving battleships away from their owners without restricting the freedoms of everyone else on the server.
Wow. Punish the guilty and let the innocent be free. What a concept.
Everyone quoted Xoria on this , but not one person actually tried to answer the questions he raised. Actually , this post is nothing but fancy use of the English dictionary as wrapping for something which can be said with only one sentence. Braking down the text from Xoria's post , reveals the fact that he seems to have no faith in the people who are in charge of the current official factions in Discovery. Many of those factions have passed thru his hands , I'm sure , so if he voted them trust when he accepted them as official factions , what is this sudden hostility towards the very people who care for the well being and well fair for their factions and for the server RP. Isn't that exactly what being a faction leader is all about ? I apologies , but that is exactly what I think your post represents - Distrust.
Faction leaders are offered some limited "power" , this word confuses people I think , and all of a sudden they seem to be treated as : PvP abusers , Power RP whores , OoRP with numerous violations and deemed unworthy of their rank as faction leader. The very people who have had the full support of the community when their faction was just getting created are reduced to nothing more then your average OoRP'er that you meet in New York.
What happened ? How did we get this level ? Everyone turns to the faction leaders when there is a problem concerning them/their friends , etc. But if we are offered some extra abilities , our authority over our own factions , our own systems and ever our RP are being attacked for no reason with an excuse which I see as completely idiotic - "This MIGHT happen!" " That will probably happen! ". However , nothing has happened. Discovery is completely different now then it was when I joined and I'm sure that it is a lot more different when many of the older members joined this server.
Now , I shall try to answer Xoria's questions , which seem as the core to everyone's doubts , to the best of my ability.
"That's the wrong question to ask. The correct question is : how does the denied/aggrieved/victimized person ever get his hands on sufficient evidence that he can submit to the Admins to prove that he is being denied a battleship for personal or non-roleplay related reasons?"
I believe that is pretty simple.
The player which wants to gain access to a Battleship makes his in RP post on the forum. Where everyone can see it , perhaps we can have a different sub-forum , just for these posts. Everyone can see them , that way it is very hard to mix personal feelings with actual RP quality. It's beyond that , it is simply impossible.
"But denials for personal reasons is simply a subset of a larger issue. What happens when a faction decides that within its concept of acceptable and reasonable roleplay all of the battleships that could exist already do, and therefore all future applications are denied?"
Factions already do that. Until recently , the BAF had and still has , a specific amount of Battleships for the faction , same goes for Destroyers. This number reflects only the ships which fly under the factions flag and do not , in any way , concern the general public or any player who wishes to have one as well. I don't see that happening at all , not only that , but there is no reason for the faction to claim such a thing. Navies always want to have more ships and constantly improve their arsenal of ships. There is nothing more refreshing then fresh blood in the form of a skilled player or one willing to learn , who RPs a newly commissioned capital ship , be that independent > Personal opinion.
"Or what happens if OPG wants a battleship and the Benitez and TBH say no? Or what happens when HF says no to a spyglass request, and I, as faction leader of the Lane Hackers, couldn't care less what they think and grant it? After empowering factions to make these decisions, don't be deceived into thinking that the Admins will then micromanage the criteria that every faction uses to make those decisions. We don't have the time, and we certainly will not have the willingness."
Do you imagine that happening ? Personally , I believe that this will not happen. Official factions that share one NPC faction , usually stay out of each others business. Why should one official faction , deny another official faction of the same affiliation a capital ship? But since you said - "What WILL happen if" - people start to think that this might actually be a plousable scenario.
"Or what about someone who wants to roleplay a renegade battleship, or a battleship with a commander who is rebellious to faction authority, or any sort of story that the faction finds unwelcome? Make no mistake, the factions will have such a wide latitude in determining what is reasonable, that there will effectively be no appeals."
Again , quite simple. It should and most probably will , be done on the forums. Something like that usually call for a special role play character clearance > http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?showforum=80 < What a coincidence , we already have that.
"Oh wait, what problem?
I almost forgot, nobody has even proven that there is a problem that this can fix, nor even remotely proven that it can fix it better than Admins taking badly behaving battleships away from their owners without restricting the freedoms of everyone else on the server. "
I'm completely sure that you remember people's opinions from several topics a couple of mouths ago. Many people stated that they can simply remain independent with their groups and pseudo-factions. Because there is no difference between them and official factions who have worked so hard for so little. Don't get me wrong , for me that "little" , is a lot , but many people have decided to simply stay independent and have repeatedly , stepped over official factions , claiming that they are no different from them. Well , I for one believe that there should be an established difference between them. If factions and their leaders have already been given a lot of trust and be called official , then what exactly is the problem here ? These new additions to the rules bring faith back to official factions. Give them meaning and not only that. People now , actually have a reason to try and improve their RP , clear out their stories and perhaps create an official faction of their own one day. Put simply - it inspires other people to improve.
I know what many are going to say now "if you want to be official just for the power - you are doing it wrong ,etc ". Many people don't want to admit it , but I for one feel important , trusted and try to improve and be the best I can , when I have been given responsibility. For me , and many other people , this means that people actually trust us enough to give us some , addition rights , unique even. This is nothing but stimulation for the factions to try to be at their best at all times. That is what I believe in.
Once again, a statement from a faction Admiral convincing us that we have nothing to worry about without asking for a change in the language of the measure that would guarantee that these abuses wouldn't occur.
That's like the farmer telling the turkey that everything will be okay.
Once again, sir, this measure is NOT about faction leaders having control over their own factions.
It is about faction leaders being able to dictate the RP of independent players with the same NPC affiliation.
These are two very different issues; one is about keeping together a group of people who have volunteered to subject themselves to you and the other is about forcing others to play the way you tell them to.
' Wrote:Once again, a statement from a faction Admiral convincing us that we have nothing to worry about without asking for a change in the language of the measure that would guarantee that these abuses wouldn't occur.
That's like the farmer telling the turkey that everything will be okay.
Once again, sir, this measure is NOT about faction leaders having control over their own factions.
It is about faction leaders being able to dictate the RP of independent players with the same NPC affiliation.
These are two very different issues; one is about keeping together a group of people who have volunteered to subject themselves to you and the other is about forcing others to play the way you tell them to.
I've said this time and again , I shall do so again , hope it makes things clear.
I am an independent. My "admiral" of the Order is NOT IN THE FACTION AND NEVER WAS. I have no authority over any other players and my Order character will gain nothing from this. I , however , have been granted the trust and the respect of both Order| players and Order players alike. They are the only reason why I am at that possition , because everyone can simply ignore my RP , but them following it and enjoying it , makes me try harder and harder to improve it.
People choose to follow my RP , I don't make anyone follow it.
Quote:I for one believe that there should be an established difference between them. If factions and their leaders have already been given a lot of trust and be called official , then what exactly is the problem here ? These new additions to the rules bring faith back to official factions. Give them meaning and not only that. People now , actually have a reason to try and improve their RP , clear out their stories and perhaps create an official faction of their own one day. Put simply - it inspires other people to improve.
Eternal, you are basically saying that we should give Official Factions power over others to reward you all enough to roleplay again?
That trust thing you were talking about, that's what it was about.
Official factions are trusted to roleplay to a high standard because they want to better their faction and overall gameplay.
Not because they are power hungry.
I promise this will be my last post for a few hours at least.
My interactions with factions here have been largely positive. It would be saddening to see the paradigm shift from players interacting with other players to players lording over other players who haven't chosen to be a part of a faction.
And if this interpretation is wrong, simply include language in the measure that will prevent it from happening.
And how about that rules amendment I suggested in response to Virus?
Quote:
If a faction leader is found to be using faction authority to abuse another player/players, the leader as well as the faction (if appropriate) are subject to the same punishments sought to be imposed on the other player(s) and in addition, that leader may also be removed from membership in that faction by admins for a period of time they determine to be appropriate.
...no one responded to this either (maybe the size will help now). I would think with all the pledges of good will by faction leaders and assurances they will "benefit" us all that they'd cheer and agree with this suggestion to show their sincerity--or is it to uncomfortable to be subject to the very same judgment you wish the power to impose on others? I propose this as an amendment to any other largess that gets given to factions and/or their leadership.
How about backing up "trust us give us power" with some acceptance of consequences when it get abused?
In the end, despite all of this, it will just turn into what happened before when factions thought to single out a particular Indy for "bad RP" or "misbehaving" The indy will ignore the faction decree, and the faction will respond just like they have in the past by pew pewing the Indy till they get tired of doing it and life goes on.
I unfortunately was the subject of the pew pewing about a year ago because I witnessed an outcast killed and was attacked by a faction cap that was the same guy as the outcast that was killed. He was upset that he was pew pewed by a gunboat and decided to take it out on my character that was just there. I killed the faction cap that attacked me and all hell broke loose. (3 faction dreads with a couple other ships attempted to KOS me the next day.) And they were ticked at me for supposed overkill.
The faction was angry and I was harassed for a few weeks. Everything died down and in the end and I just lost all respect for the faction in question because of all the lies and exaggerations that were set against me. We had a pretty good thing until that point.
What am I trying to say about all this? It will happen. The buddy system runs deep here and players will get picked on because a faction member is friends with so and so and someone decides to make an "official decree." This isnt just a problem with factions. I have seen a friend repeatedly banned on all accounts without as much as a note on the forums, just because he crossed a faction.
With the recent thing that found that Indies are on a level playing field with factions, things got better. This has the ability to change all this back.
In all honesty, I have met very few "rogue pew pewing" BS in my travels. Maybe I am on a good time-zone or maybe it is that there really isn't that much of an issue.
I have to also note that Xorias 2 cents should be taken very seriously in this matter as well. I agree with him completely.
just to throw in a statement and a question quick:
As far as "indies in ruling councils having power over the faction", meaning indies who are in the order High Command (in rp, the leaders of the Order, they do not have direct control over what the official faction itself can do. (I'm obviously going to use the Order as an example here).
So let's say some HC members disagree on something, and others agree, if the factionized HC members choose to completely disregard what the others have said, then they can however is completely sellfish and not quite in rp. It makes you look like a jerk.
What I can say, is that the point of the Order HC is to bring factionized and indies together. Naturally, what the HC talks about and what everyone says will influence what factionized members do.
Basically, yes I'll listen to what everyone says and act on behalf of the greater good with everyone in mind (both indies and faction members).
Now, question.
the Order| (formerly Bs|) has apparently "admin approved" control of Omicron minor. This was in place before I joined Bs| and DBoy was still in command. (boy if he were here right now). So I'm wondering to what extent the Order|'s power goes in regard to Omicron minor. Obviously we own Omicron 100 and can restrict, tax, do whatever. What about minor?
Quote:Everyone quoted Xoria on this , but not one person actually tried to answer the questions he raised. Actually , this post is nothing but fancy use of the English dictionary as wrapping for something which can be said with only one sentence. Braking down the text from Xoria's post , reveals the fact that he seems to have no faith in the people who are in charge of the current official factions in Discovery. Many of those factions have passed thru his hands , I'm sure , so if he voted them trust when he accepted them as official factions , what is this sudden hostility towards the very people who care for the well being and well fair for their factions and for the server RP. Isn't that exactly what being a faction leader is all about ? I apologies , but that is exactly what I think your post represents - Distrust.
You're right. He doesn't trust faction leaders with this kind of power.
Neither do I.
Your little impassioned speech here:
Quote:Faction leaders are offered some limited "power" , this word confuses people I think , and all of a sudden they seem to be treated as : PvP abusers , Power RP whores , OoRP with numerous violations and deemed unworthy of their rank as faction leader. The very people who have had the full support of the community when their faction was just getting created are reduced to nothing more then your average OoRP'er that you meet in New York.
Blows his entire post out of proportion.
It's this extremism that cause people to distrust.
PS: He's only led the Lane Hackers, so that attempt to discredit his argument fails too. Do your research...
Quote:[7:42:05 PM][6:51:36 PM] Igor (Smokey): btw terry
[6:51:48 PM] Terrance Cooper: Ye?
[6:52:00 PM] Igor (Smokey): nothin
[6:52:03 PM] Igor (Smokey): just sayin btw
[6:52:05 PM] Terrance Cooper: <_<
Quote:Johnny_Haas: you shot anti criuse speed rockets!!!
Johnny_Haas: but why????
Johnny_Haas: ??
Johnny_Haas: why you shoot criuse speed rockets?
Now here is a question. I want to take OSI official. We are close to meeting the current requirements to to make that application. Now in there is no RP reason for OSI to ever own a system, or cap ship. Maybe we may have a gun boat or two, but that is highly doubtful at this point in time. So while getting the 500 mil back will be nice, none of the other stuff realy applies to us. So what is it in for us for go official. Nothing short of getting our cash back.
Now before anyone jumps at me. I do not care about all that stuff for OSI. I want to go official because that means, to me at least, that I did it right. I started something that other folks see as a good RP thing and want to be apart of it, and that the ADMINS agree that I am doing it right and will contribute to Disco as a whole with our RP. Personally I think thats the reason factions should want to go official.
Personally I agree with rights 1, 2, 3 although I also think the cap 8 armor is not needed. What would I do with it other then sell it. Right 4 also makes sense
Right 5 is the sticking point, while I can see the RP reasons behind this...the human factor gets in the way. Yes this could be abused, yes this could cause no end of problems, but in RP is makes sense. Personally I think we should give it all a test run and see what happens. I do not think it will be as bad as some seem to think. Although maybe firming up a consequence for any abuse of power by the official factions could be writen in.
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