ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS

[SigCorps]

Well after some thought and discussion elsewhere, I would like to add that with past issues Right 2 is looking more and more thin. We had some major blow ups a while back when the Order attempted to control a few folks. There have been other examples of this also. Folks talk about trust, but some of that has been lost. Why do we not shelve a few of these rights...namely 2 and 5 until they can be written in such a way as to not lead to abuse and not be too micro managing.

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Formerly Sam Nichols, creator of OSI

[Quorg]

Overload, I'm going to add the fllowing to Right 2.

Official Factions cannot, under any cicrumstances, require another player to follow non-canon RP if that player doesn't want to.

That do?

Oh, and Tinkerbell, that question got missed. Not ignored. M'kay?

Thanks for the response, Senor Schprokets.
I like the way this is going.

:yahoo:

We'll hold allz y'allz to this! And don't forget to add it in if you do end up putting this into practice.

There are other concerns to be addressed, but seeing this definitely leaves me a little less worried.

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ATTENTION SMUGGLERS
The Midnight Express: A Slaver <strike>who doesn't completely realize what he's doing.</strike> (video)

Quorg, you're officially a moron.

...mongs like Quorg being like a malignant little cancer...

Way to be useless, Quorg.

[chovynz]

Sidenote: Just a thought. Would it be possible to right up a "Players Freedoms," charter or something? What can you expect as player? factionized or not.

The server rules are ok as server rules, but I think there has been a large focus on what you are NOT allowed to do. When you add to that with more rules of what your are not allowed to do, it can get confusing.

I think, that perhaps if we wrote up something that explains what you CAN do, it would help the server.

Ontopic: Should official factions have more *rights* than any other normal player, I don't know. I don't know where I stand with this proposal, a day ago I was for it, half an hour I was against it...it's hard to see the points in amoungst all the crap being flung about. I DO know that there is no democracy. What the Admins say goes, and I think they are trying to do their best. They are trying to give us "normal players" the opportunities to input into their decisions - for the good of the server.

What does Igiss think? Should players join factions that are available? Or should there be quite a bit of freedom in what you do as an alternate person in a fantasy space simulator? Is the RP based on real-life or is it based on the defined roles of each NPC faction? Do we as players have the freedom to change Disco the way we *want*, or is that solely Igiss' place?

This is not an easy thing to answer, (should factions have more rights), because as soon as you bring *that word* into it, it TURNS into a human rights discussion. Especially from the American viewpoint where rights is a holy cradle. The discussion gets confusing. What right have we got as a visitor to this server to demand anything? Igiss owns the site and server, run on hardware that is operated by someone else, paid for by donations of certain other people.

There are more than two sides to the discussion. "Official factions" are being discussed here, but what does Igiss and the Admins want for official factions? What's the point in being "official" when it doesn't give you anything in return? Is there any difference between an "official" player, and a "non-official" player? If the difference is time, why is that special? If they can RP, I see no difference. After the ability to RP it becomes a question of time, but why is that important? Does the history of players actually matter? Does the stories and the building of long-term players actually account for anything? Or is it only Igiss who can write the story of Discovery? Is this a partnership between the "community" or is it a few who have the say? Because if it IS a partnership, then someone does needs to lead. IS Igiss the leader? or is the leader - consensus?

What and where is this server going, and who's driving it? That's the larger question that this "Official faction rights" topic is part of.

I can already hear "Yes Igiss in in charge", but how many people have actually asked him? Does he WANT to be in charge of disco anymore? Is it Igiss baby still or is it this the communities baby? Because if this is the communities then we need to change a great many ways of doing things around here.

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Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.

[tazuras]

Honestly, other than the trust issues and paranoia, what is wrong with #5?

If someone writes some decent RP they get approved, if they dont, they dont get approved. If they write some decent RP and dont get approved, it should be fairly obvious and in that case the admins can step in and smack the faction leader around a bit. Are you afraid the admins wont do this? Cause I am not really.

The only situation I can see being a problem would be if the RP is good, but the faction does not find it appropriate. I would say if this is the case, then the faction would be required to help the author revise to maintain his theme and stay within disco cannon (not player faction dogma). I can see this being a little troublesome but I dont really see the harm in trying it really, if it doesnt work, then the right gets rescinded.

As for control versus freedom, I dont see a problem with this control. Requiring people to have a very good idea of the RP of a battleship and document it? Forgetting who has power to grant approval, what is wrong with this in itself?

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[Cellulanus]

Well, I think that it is quite evident that this endless debating wont get anyone anywhere, and as someone suggested before, why don't we give these a test run? If major problems turn up its not like the rules can't be tweaked or removed, heck it could even be test run on a handful factions for a short time if people are that scared of it.


Two scientists can argue all day about what would happen if you mixed gun powder with silly putty and lit it on fire, but neither of them will know which one is right until they actually mix silly putty with gun powder and light it on fire. (from behind a protective pane of course)


EDIT: Damn it, that gave me the urge to do that, to make matters worse I do have access to silly putty and gun power available.

[Dieter Schprokets]

EDIT: Damn it, that gave me the urge to do that, to make matters worse I do have access to silly putty and gun power available.

Don't.

Burned the skin off the top of my hand with black powder once.

Worst pain in my life.

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[Eppy]

I figure, before I go to bed, that I should declare the majority of posts in this thread

Seriously. We'll go with it and see what happens. Stop complaining.

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Quick comment - we thought that Panzer was the Leader, Swift. -Agmen

Which Dreadnought was that?

One of your nine.

[Agmen of Eladesor]

Well, I think that it is quite evident that this endless debating wont get anyone anywhere, and as someone suggested before, why don't we give these a test run? If major problems turn up its not like the rules can't be tweaked or removed, heck it could even be test run on a handful factions for a short time if people are that scared of it.

Two scientists can argue all day about what would happen if you mixed gun powder with silly putty and lit it on fire, but neither of them will know which one is right until they actually mix silly putty with gun powder and light it on fire. (from behind a protective pane of course)

EDIT: Damn it, that gave me the urge to do that, to make matters worse I do have access to silly putty and gun power available.

It'll make a slower burning gunpowder. And if you put gunpowder INSIDE silly putty, the explosion will make it act a bit like a shaped charge.


(Sorry, I'm older than you - been there, already done that. I made my own gunpowder - from scratch - back when I was 12, with stuff I bought at my hometown pharmacy. Of course, since my dad also worked at the local fertilizer manufacturing plant, we also had access to effectively unlimited amounts of Ammonium Nitrate. That stuff works great for clearing stumps.)

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Eternal]

You say people are over-reacting because of what "might happen"? We are talking about things which have happened, and failed in the past. You are more than welcome to do what you want with "your" faction and "your" members, just leave the independents alone.

If not anything else , our join dates at least indicate that we both joined the community at ruffly the same time. Post count taken into consideration , I've been thru everything that has happened here from the time I joined. What are you talking about then ? I and many others want exact details and prove of what you are saying.

People should not feel inspired to improve their RP in order to control independents, but simply for the benefit of RP and the community. Your difference which you want establish will be a split in the server, not exactly something I want, but then again I do not know about you.

You want to feel trusted and important? Welcome to Earth. There are seven billion of us, most wanting exactly the same thing. There are over 9000 people in this community, again, most wanting the same thing. You fail to realise an independent's need to feel important. Oh wait, your answer to that is to join a faction and work your way, eventually gaining enough rank and respect to feel trusted and important? Unfortunately, some of us have a life outside FL, regardless of how difficult a concept that is for some people to realise. Hence, some cannot be in so many official factions. (Also, how hard do you think it is for an independent capital ship to gain respect on this server is? How about to gain trust and to be important? It is not a walk in the park.)
As said previously, the situation miraculously changes once the boot is on the other foot.
Right, then you should have no problems with independent, non-english speaking capital ships killing you or not following your orders right?

Yes , I want to feel like that. I enjoy having responsibilities when it comes to the community and yes , people should want that as well. Why not ? You are basically saying what I did , just using different words.If they wish to have said responsibilities and be leaders of factions , they are free to apply. No one has stopped them from doing so. Even if they want to remain independent , a word which only exists on the forums and cannot in any way be RP when in a military organization , you can get respect and feel important as well , I did that. I made my Order character a very long time ago and from that moment on I simply RP'ed. Everything else happened by itself. I don't expect people to always join official factions , I expect them to do what everyone should do - RP. I don't play 24/7 , never have , mostly 30min / 1h is enough

Hard ? It's not harder then doing the same in a fighter. How do you think I and many other people did it ? Speaking just for myself here - I traded for 3-4 days to get the money , then went to Tripoly and bought my Osiris. The moment I did that I RP'ed a bit and went to Minor , one day later I met Swiss on his Bs| and we RP'ed. He seemed to like it and the same goes 1 year or so latter. I wrote a story on the forums , but that was only because I wanted , no one made me.

So honestly , I don't see your point. Sounds like you are shooting in the dark.

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[hribek]

1) Official Factions are free to restrict or not restrict access to their owned systems and tax players who enter owned system. However, properly Tagged and ID'd independent players may enter Guard systems. Access to systems that surround owned system must not be restricted unless there's a war with another faction.

2) Official factions have authority over players of the same NPC affiliation, as long as RP justification is provided. This authority applies in forums and in-game, and applies to player faction diplomacy, and strategic and tactical direction. However, exercise of that authority, on the forums and in game, is restricted to official faction members with the rank of the official faction leader and one rank below him/her. The authority may be exercised through the use of in-game in-RP orders, which, if not obeyed, can result in in-game in-RP consequences (arrest, court martial, and even “lethal” force in extreme circumstances).

4) Official Factions who have planned an event can restrict participation of others in that event as they see fit.

1, 2, 4 - these things are actually in effect, but dont exist as rules, but ommonly known guidelines. If it's necessary to make them into server rules, whatever. But these three re rather "official declaration and acknowledgement" of existing faction rights. So okay, we know what we do. Perfectly fine.

3) Once a faction achieves official status, they will receive their downpayment of $500 mill back. They will further receive a Cap 8 Armour Upgrade, once they have spent 3 months contributing meaningfully to server RP, for instance, via events and forum activity.

Now that is something new. Bonuses as rewads are always nice. Doesn't have to mean just cap 8 armor upgrades. I've briefly read a few posts at the beginning of the thread, I think there were some good ideas.
However, how is this a "faction right"? They "have a right" to be rewarded? Sounds a bit funny. This stands out, i think - it isn't really a faction right.

5) Official Factions control the issuance of Battleship Licences to independent players and faction members for their house Battleships, via the forum application process.
Players sanctioned for PVP violations in a battleship may, at the Admin's discretion, have the licence removed as part of their sanction. They must then re-apply for the licence from the official faction, or downgrade the ship.

An Official Faction which has granted a battleship licence to a player may ask the Admins afterwards to remove the licence, with reasons. Conversely a player who feels they have been treated unfairly by an Official Faction, regarding a licence, may appeal to the Admins.

No. Just no. we all have enough "paperwork" as it is. Although in my current situation I might theorize that people aren't going to buy a dozen Spyglasses every week, but ... wait, no. Who would... just how ? My imagination is large, but still limited...

On second thought, perhaps I could cut out the problematic parts ... *Ctrl-X, Ctrl-X*
5) <strike>Official Factions control the Battleship independent players and faction members.
Players sanctioned for PVP violations may have the ship removed as part of their sanction.
An Official Faction may ask the Admins to remove a player who have treated unfairly an Official Faction.</strike>

Uh. It got a bit funny again. Yikes!

I think that:
By buying a capital ship, one gains two things:
- firepower
- responsibility to roleplay properly, because such ship cannot be overlooked.
Spending the time to earn for it is one's own choice and does not grant any rights.

Discovery Gaming Community should have an open policy regarding this. I've been an active member of a certain official player faction with a large number of players for some time now and surprisingly - this official faction does not restrict their members' ship choice at all.

In a different (pirate) environment, gunboats are like battleships already. Unless there is a real, non-imaginary, proven problem with the capital ship pilot, they should have the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty. I do not want to put the capital/battleship "buyers" and "sellers" getting into a hostile or annoyed mindset just because of the added paperwork. On the contrary, non-faction battleships should be co-operating with the official factions as much as possible, and be encouraged to do so.
Regarding player (mis)conduct that cannot be helped in any reasonable way, the faction lead will have to pass it on to the administrators - and we all know how that works.

What we need is not a new set of rules. We have all the guidelines we require, already. We need an attitude change and we need it now. Starting with myself. Suddenly i see less trouble in the world, everyone is friendlier and can both help and be helped. Communication between actual people on the forums and in game is in fact so limited, that the same text message can mean several completely different things, depending on the recipient's mindset.

Perhaps someone could create a flow chart of how to handle problematic ships? Just to illustrate it and lead the way. I've run out of time for now.

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