The Albatross is not a civilian ship, it is an IMG ship. Also, shield power is not related to the size of the ship.
Another thing to remember, Wobbly, is that the original FL was not perfect, and had balancing issues. That is what has been addressed in Disco, and Disco has done a good job with it.
Quote:[7:42:05 PM][6:51:36 PM] Igor (Smokey): btw terry
[6:51:48 PM] Terrance Cooper: Ye?
[6:52:00 PM] Igor (Smokey): nothin
[6:52:03 PM] Igor (Smokey): just sayin btw
[6:52:05 PM] Terrance Cooper: <_<
Quote:Johnny_Haas: you shot anti criuse speed rockets!!!
Johnny_Haas: but why????
Johnny_Haas: ??
Johnny_Haas: why you shoot criuse speed rockets?
I agree with Dab in that I believe that the Liner is balanced with respect to it's intended purpose, that of a passenger liner. Yes, the power systems would most likely be comparable to that of a battleship, but as stated would be intended for supporting alot of passengers on long, deepspace voyages.
In my opinion, do with it what you will, I don't know if a Luxury Liner should it be on par with a battleship in terms of weapon strength. Sure, it should have the defenses to fend off a few fighter class ships, maybe even a gunboat. But to go toe-to-toe with capital class warships by itself? That's asking a little much.
The Albatross is not a civilian ship, it is an IMG ship.
What??:PThe IMG is as civilian as Spa and Cruise, they are not a military group and in fact have far less resources than Spa and Cruise.
' Wrote:Also, shield power is not related to the size of the ship.
I'm tempted to do red and blue blobs to graph shield power vs. size of ship, but I won't.
Instead I will state the obvious, shield power is directly related to the size of the ship, even if you say it isn't.
' Wrote:Another thing to remember, Wobbly, is that the original FL was not perfect, and had balancing issues. That is what has been addressed in Disco, and Disco has done a good job with it.
Which as a blanket statement is essentially correct, yet you fail to make any point against my argument there.
Freelancers original balance issues do not invalidate the designers build of the lux liner, it just means that the liner turrets were weak, like liberty BS turrets were weak.
' Wrote:I agree with Dab in that I believe that the Liner is balanced with respect to it's intended purpose, that of a passenger liner. Yes, the power systems would most likely be comparable to that of a battleship, but as stated would be intended for supporting alot of passengers on long, deepspace voyages.
Gunboats, which the lux liner is in almost every respect in this mod, do not match luxury liners in size, power, or in the weapons each could support.
Power is power, if power is there to support passengers, it can be rerouted in emergency to fire big guns.
Sorry guys what is the point of this now ... Wobbly, what are you saying. You want your liner to be a civilian
battleship with a large power supply weapons and hold ?
This is the impression I get here, not a debate on its merits as a civilian transport, which in essence it actually is
I think Igiss has made it clear about its role ...
If you arm it as a capship, then its fair game to any pirate ship. If it stays as a transport, then its prey to
gunboats and below.
If its a luxury liner, it wouldn't be overfilled with the cheap seats, it would be reserved for, say 600 spaces
only. You seem to want the best of all worlds here.
Hoodlum
Some say he is a proud member of: "The most paranoid group of people in the Community."
Yes, but when you take away the power for the passengers, they get pissed off and don't come back to your ship.
And to transform a Liner into something combat capable, would take a long time! A gunboat, has basically nothing but guns.
Also, the inside of a liner is filled with empty spaces. It has Pool's, ballrooms, dining rooms, banquet halls, Theatres and everything you could want on a luxury cruise. But remeber this, AIR and EMPTY SPACE DO NOT MAKE GOOD STRUCTURAL SUPPORTS. A single shot on the hull from a gunboat weapon will punch right through the week hull and destroy something. A combat Dedicated vessle with have STRUCTUAL SUPPORT, meaning that it may be smaller, but its hull is stronger.
And smaller vessels can have better shields then a bigger one. A hugh vessel needs a lot of power to power shields so that it must have a big generator. A liner uses a lot of that power to power its entertainment systems.
*Ahem*, I have been on Single Player recently, and I saw a good example of why they should be soooo weak.
Prison ship XT-19 was nearly destroyed by a group of Liberty Rogues.. the Liner would try to make the passengers happy; passengers don't really think that Battleship Weapons are a must for a holiday, they would much prefer random rubish that needs POWER to run, not some giant gun thing.. otherwise Battleship holidays would be SO much more popular. This also applies to a shield, they wouldn't waste the power that they could use to power all kinds of random entertainment devices , to power a big shield. "Yes, the holiday might be a tad boring, but you'll be as safe as if you were in the Battleship Missouri".
Anyway, you can't really argue with Kane that the civilians get worse weapons. Personally I've never been to America, but I'm guessing pretty much nobody has a nuclear missile in their backgarden, or a Tank ( unless its old).
Whatever, I'm not really convinced if you are ever going to drop this or not. Because if you havn't guessed it only your that want these changes pretty much.
You want original FL-Liners? Alright, lets give the thing 11 turrets. Those would be 11 turrets doing 160 hull, and 80 shield damage. No shield, barely as much power as the Titan, no agility, and the armor of the current bombers. You want original, than there it is.
SHUT UP. The liner is not a battleship. It shouldn't even be able to stand toe-to-toe with a cruiser, and the gunboat if piloted well should beat it. Sure its a civilian capship. But keep in mind, NO civilian ship would be the equal of a ship made and piloted by a MILITARY. A MILITARY with vast research and development funds, large amounts of weaponry and testing equipment, and equipment that is not available to the public. Though I agree it shouldn't be as weak as the average transports, nor should it be the equal of a military or pirate capital ship. It is a TRADING SHIP. Of that Hoodlum is right. The power supply to sustain a couple thousand passengers does NOT take the power to handle battleship weaponry, shields, and other equipment. My school has around 2800 students, plus couple hundred staff. Do you see us taking more power to run the school for a day than it takes for a US battleship to run? No, not even close. Barely in the same area. A battleship's energy capacity and usage vastly outdo the energy requirements of anything less than a full-fledged capital shipyard.
The size of the liner is nothing like that of a battleship. Its just above half the size of the Osiris, the smallest of the battleships, and is skinnier than the cruisers, only giving more length than them. Its agility is that of a cruiser, and the cargo hold takes up roughly 85% of the ship. A battleship is almost twice the size, or more than the liner and the cargo hold takes up roughly 10% of the ship. The power core of a battleship has to supply power to the 90% of it that is comprised of equipment. The liner has about 15% of its size in equipment, giving about 1/8 the power needs of a battleship. Not to mention the liner would require a smaller and less powerful engine than the battleship, or even a cruiser would. Its alot of empty space sometimes filled with passengers. It gives alot of its space to luxury for those passengers as well. A battleship makes very small rooms, even for the ship's officers, as space is very limited. Luxury is non-existent with the exception of the captain's quarters. Which are still smaller than the average room.
Wanna read a certain rumor from Luxury Liner Hawaii in Sigma-19? It goes something like; We let the Corsairs do whatever they want around here. If we tried to stop them, they would blow this ship to pieces.
What does that tell you? That Corsair FIGHTERS can defeat that Liner if they were determined on it. Hey look, if you are sitting still and are swarmed by 20 Corsairs in Titan, or even Centurions, you'll die!
The Liner is FINE AS IT IS. Now shut up and go home. This discussion is over, the liner was edited, Igiss made his decision. It in no way needs to be edited. This mod deals with something called BALANCE, and you would seek to disrupt it so you can get your little hands on a battleship-killing, cruiser-sized, transport just because you don't like everyone else being more or just as powerful as you. You want something that can fight battleships? Get a goddamned battleship then!
Wobbly, yeah, time to stop now... Liners are transports with some additional armor and weaponry. Nothing more. They are meant to be not-very-frequent ships, mostly used for RPing.
IMG has less resources than Spa and Cruise? Well, um... IMG has bases and mining operations in Tau, Bretonia, Omega, Independent Worlds... what are you talking about? IMG is one of the most powerful independent Freelancer factions, along with Zoners and GMG.
Quote:Power is power, if power is there to support passengers, it can be rerouted in emergency to fire big guns.
And throw passengers into open space. Their dead bodies floating around the liner gonna provide some additional protection in space combat. They've already paid for their tickets, right? And dead people don't usually demand a refund...
' Wrote:Wobbly, yeah, time to stop now... Liners are transports with some additional armor and weaponry. Nothing more. They are meant to be not-very-frequent ships, mostly used for RPing.
So they count as transports officially is what you are saying?
' Wrote:IMG has less resources than Spa and Cruise? Well, um... IMG has bases and mining operations in Tau, Bretonia, Omega, Independent Worlds... what are you talking about? IMG is one of the most powerful independent Freelancer factions, along with Zoners and GMG.
"The Independent Miners Guild (IMG) is a loose confederation of miners who work those fields that have thus far remained undeveloped by the larger mining companies."
They are not really freelancers, and they are smaller than groups like the GMG, who have a corner on H fuel. Being a loose confederation means to me that they lack a single central strong leadership, so while they may have some rag tag bases like the Hood, they are not that powerful, certainly not as powerful as OS&C who have the liner market cornered.
' Wrote:And throw passengers into open space. Their dead bodies floating around the liner gonna provide some additional protection in space combat. They've already paid for their tickets, right? And dead people don't usually demand a refund...
Why would rerouting power temporarily to the guns eject passengers into space? It would take far longer than most battles last for the air to go bad and the temp to become deadly.
You've said liners are transports, but you haven't said why they are gunboats in the game. I guess this is so people with ID's that allow transports but not gunboats can fly the liner as a gunboat? You also haven't really said why they should be RP only or what that means. To me if a ship is worth RPing it should also be worth making into something that matches what you are RPing when it comes to combat.
' Wrote:Yes, but when you take away the power for the passengers, they get pissed off and don't come back to your ship.
I don't see that at all. If the ship is attacked by pirates and I was a customer, it would seem to me that I would appriciate being in a ship that could overcome the attack rather than being dead.
Can you explain to me the thought process of a passenger that gets pissed when the lights dim because pirates are being effectively repelled when the alternative is being killed?
' Wrote:And to transform a Liner into something combat capable, would take a long time! A gunboat, has basically nothing but guns.
A liner comes out of the box as combat capable, that is why it is built with all those capital ship turret mounts.
' Wrote:Also, the inside of a liner is filled with empty spaces. It has Pool's, ballrooms, dining rooms, banquet halls, Theatres and everything you could want on a luxury cruise. But remeber this, AIR and EMPTY SPACE DO NOT MAKE GOOD STRUCTURAL SUPPORTS. A single shot on the hull from a gunboat weapon will punch right through the week hull and destroy something. A combat Dedicated vessle with have STRUCTUAL SUPPORT, meaning that it may be smaller, but its hull is stronger.
Not at all, if you look at any ship, military or civilian they are built the same, the structural strength comes from the decks and bulkheads reinforcing the hull. There is no reason the liner can't meet or exceed the military ship.
I agree a liner would have less armor on the outside of the hull, but it would still have armor because it can expect to get shot at, and that armor is on the outside where it doesn't impact the inside space.
' Wrote:And smaller vessels can have better shields then a bigger one. A hugh vessel needs a lot of power to power shields so that it must have a big generator. A liner uses a lot of that power to power its entertainment systems.
Shields for larger ships have more strength, which is how I measure better. Not sure what metric you are using for better but a BS shield is better than the cruiser shield which is better than the GB shield etc...
As far as shield power, it comes from the shield, not from other systems in FL mechanics, where size seems to determine shield strength directly.
Liners are passenger ships. Only power it needs is to power the stardrive, life support, and nav systems. Weapons are a plus to defend until help arrives.
As an analogy? Have you ever seen a passenger vessel, like this one
carrying the weapons of this other one?
No. You don't.
And in fact, the Passenger ships are bigger, and have more power available. But they are just that. Passenger ships. Not bloody camouflaged planet killers. So get used to it. Liners will be liners, not super Uber small battleships. If you are looking for that, then this is not the right mod.
(If you find any mistake in my English, please let me know via a PM)
(Really, I speak terrible English, so please, tell me if I make mistakes. I'd like to improve it a bit )