DSE builds all jumpgates in Sirius, which is why they all use the same style. It's why Interspace Commerce effectively owned Houses Kusari and Rheinland for a period of time. The reason Gallia is getting its own is because DSE quite obviously did not build theirs...
Some more unique stations would be pretty cool, though. Kusari definitely has style to it, you'd expect Samura and Kishiro to try and one-up each other with station designs.
It should be noted also that a certain Kusari party is breaking its bum over trying to acquire this little thing. I would hope you are perfectly aware of this, Harcourt.
I always love reading about these things. A lot of people at one point or another have talked about how Ageira would lose its trade secrets in terms of building Lanes and Gates. However, reality stands that its not entirely secret since DSE has exclusive rights to the construction of all Lane and Gate sites. But I also point to the infocard for gate/lane parts in which it says that each one is secured and can only be opened at specified locations. And the fact that Pueblo station is a "secure" station even though I don't personally believe that based on the npc show of force.
I had always imagined that Ageira's ability to keep a hold on its technology wasn't because of the secrecy of its technology, but that they had access to certain key materials required for the gate that absolutely no one else could get. This of course changed with they released the Gallic house but I still considered the idea and simply adapted it to the thought that the Gallic house managed to find another source in the outer sector that it now resides. However, I do acknowledge that because the Gallic house has somehow obtained both gate and lane technology that eventually people will be wanting the independent looks for each of their houses or that the Order or one of the other Edgeworld factions has somehow discovered the technology themselves and plans to implement it in some way or another.
I'm sure people with a firmer grip on lore, in part or whole, can give you more than this, but I will give it a shot.
The concept has been -- or was, at least, in vanilla, there is always confusion when Discovery changes introduce inconsistencies -- that on Manhattan one day, long ago close to the dawn of Liberty, a temple-like thing was found. It contained information and technology of an ancient and high sort.
Liberty leaders put together various secret groups of people, they created other secret groups of people, and so on. Eventually we had Ageira Technologies putting the technology to use and further researching it which was formed by The Order of Cincinnatus. The Order of Cincinnatus, I believe, was eventually infested by Nomads completely except for the fellow who founded The Order that we have today.
Neither of the Orders were intended as an establishment to further develop the technology, though they both are intimately familiar with it and the research surrounding it. Ageira, on the other hand, has spent the past 800 years developing the technology. The lane engine technology itself was not among the uncovered alien technology as such, but over the decades and centuries the technology has been phased into existing and parallely developed technology to produce the original gates and lanes and the subsequent iterations leading up to the present day.
The idea behind how Gallia got access to the technology, or parts of it, I believe is that Junkers spied and stole. The knowledge of parts of the technology are, by now, quite spread out. There is still the Order of Cinncinattus, though they are pretty deeply buried in shadow, and there is the Ageira researchers. I'm certain that very few people have the full picture, but plenty have pieces of it. The Junkers spied on the pieces and Gallia engineers pieced as much of it together as they could until they had something that worked well enough for their monarchy.
Junkers -- by which I don't mean Junkers in general, I mean the core and shadowy Junkers that exist utterly and purely in the service of the crown -- would likely have it much easier doing this than any other faction in Sirius. They have spent almost as much time as Ageira has spent researching on developing contacts and getting their receptive influence deeper into Liberty.
Kishiro doesn't have the same resources that the Junkers have, so they have to resort to completely different ways of getting at it. So far, they have been unable. I'd say this is equally true for any other faction.
I can't imagine that The Order -- one of the only other faction I can see that has had or has the capability -- isn't all that interested in building lanes and gates. Their resources are needed to bolster their armada in defence against the Nomads and all the other lesser enemies they have accumulated over time.
The Lane Hackers is the other faction with the potential. They have, at least, gotten past the security of the white boxes. They have far less resources than The Order and probably even less interest in building anything. Sharing is out of the question too, since then they lose all but the very slightest advantage they have today. They use their knowledge of the gate/lane systems to further themselves in all manner of ways, though primarily financially.
Gate/lane projects are likely the most generally expensive construction projects in existence in Sirius today. Very few have the resources to finance them and those that do don't have the knowledge, research, or similar resources to build them themselves. Ageira and DSE were forced to create Interspace Commerce just to fund the early ones, and even today no House corporation is willing to buy a gate or lane segment without insurance (and loans) from IC.
Not even Kishiro! They had to pull their governmental strings to get a battleship moved in order to get insurance before the construction could start (or even, before negotiations could conclude). Construction on that gate is going far slower than on any other, to the consternation and dismay of Kusari. Does Ageira/DSE/IC know what they are trying to do, or is it true that there are other complications delaying it? Well, we'll all know when we get close to completion. Until then, Liberty is certainly happy to get paid for the construction.
I mostly agree with you, however lanes and gates ARE part of what was recoverd from that data found on manhattan.
Thats why, in disco lore, nomads can use gates/lanes. The things are reverse engenered from dom kavash designs. Note the nomad gate in vanilla. Note the nomad trade lanes in disco (if you ever make it that far into iota....... )
The way I see it, Kishiro/Samura are happy to maintain the status quo.
HOWEVER, they are more than willing to underhandedly aquire data, as well as doing research on their own, side by side with their house's goverment quite likley.
Liberty simply had a massive jump ahead thanks to the vahalla material, the liberty engine, gates/lanes, docking rings, etc etc.
However they have still had to share, and for quite some time, to further their economic goals.
Not to mention that when Rhinland and Kusari nataonalized their trade lane systems and jump gates, it would make no sense to do that if they did not start up a process to reverse enginer said items.
It'd be easy to do, too, simply 'steal' part of a lane segment, or most of it at least, and make it seem as if a pirate blew it up. Buy a new replacement segment from Ageria, have DSE install it, it's assumed by them that nothing is amiss, especily if the repair teams suffer casulties as well.
As for the Kusari gate....... instead of having 4 moving segments with a long beam running the gates length behind them, I suggest having three. re-texture/model them so it looks like a blooming flower when it opens up to fit the Kusari design ethic.
Ageira makes the "white boxes" that contain the Valhalla tech needed to make gates and lanes work.
Universal ships it to the sites.
DSE builds the frames and bulk of the gates and lanes and mounts the "white boxes."
Nobody but Ageira peeks inside those boxes the entire time.
Furthermore, it's very established that it's impossible to break into these "white boxes."
Only Ageira actually knows what makes the lanes and gates work, though other corporations are part of the process.
DSE is quite clueless as to how they work, other than "pointy end goes into hole, power cord goes into socket."
And, Harcourt:
Kusari doesn't really have a hope of developing this technology without somehow stealing the technology from Ageira. This is all based on alien technology. Humans can't develop alien technology on their own, otherwise it wouldn't be alien. It's completely different from anything we'll ever develop or create, and no amount of time would replace Valhalla.
I imagine that, if any less-than-absolutely-covert operations to reverse engineer the gate/lane systems were enacted, Ageira almost definitely possesses this capability to systematically destroy all the "white boxes" or at least the key components in the lanes throughout those houses.
And, yes, the houses own the lanes and gates.
It's not much, really - the "white boxes" are still un-openable, and the Valhalla tech inside still belongs to Ageira, in part and parcel. It's theirs, physically, intellectually, and realistically. The houses, though they "own" the gates and lanes, still don't have access to the technology.
' Wrote:I mostly agree with you, however lanes and gates ARE part of what was recoverd from that data found on manhattan.
It would seem that you need some practice in the level of careful reading necessary for proper communication on forums. The alternative is that I need more practice in elevated verbosity, something I am not keen on. Perhaps I am being illegitimately pretentious.
I think I said what you agree on fully quite clearly, but perhaps my naturalization with this language hasn't given me the complete familiarity to reliably express myself accurately. In this case, perhaps I meant the opposite of the meaning of "as such." I apologize.
The Daam K'vosh gate and lane technology was certainly part of the discovery. It was, however, not simply usable. In addition, the technology didn't exist in the form of fully built gates and lanes. That would be absurd.
' Wrote:Thats why, in disco lore, nomads can use gates/lanes. The things are reverse engenered from dom kavash designs. Note the nomad gate in vanilla. Note the nomad trade lanes in disco (if you ever make it that far into iota....... )
They are not primarily reverse-engineered from Daam K'vosh structures, they are primarily engineered based on Daam K'vosh designs. Significant difference, one you likely realize.
' Wrote:The way I see it, Kishiro/Samura are happy to maintain the status quo.
HOWEVER, they are more than willing to underhandedly aquire data, as well as doing research on their own, side by side with their house's goverment quite likley.
Liberty simply had a massive jump ahead thanks to the vahalla material, the liberty engine, gates/lanes, docking rings, etc etc.
However they have still had to share, and for quite some time, to further their economic goals.
I am of the persuasion that Liberty is currently on the side of weaker legality in the arena of Sirius. If another House was to aggressively and ultimately oppose the status quo, this would likely change quickly and in more unfortunate ways than one.
' Wrote:Not to mention that when Rhinland and Kusari nataonalized their trade lane systems and jump gates, it would make no sense to do that if they did not start up a process to reverse enginer said items.
It makes sense in a myriad ways. Plans of reverse engineering would be that of micrology at the time, it seems to me. It is far more likely that it would grow out of bitterness, only from the lesser aspects of power.
The process of reverse-engineering the technology is conceptually and practically separate from that of consecutively employing it. Employing the technology is a tremendous investment that would be far from worthwhile as the current status quo rests.
' Wrote:It'd be easy to do, too, simply 'steal' part of a lane segment, or most of it at least, and make it seem as if a pirate blew it up. Buy a new replacement segment from Ageria, have DSE install it, it's assumed by them that nothing is amiss, especily if the repair teams suffer casulties as well.
I believe the process of stealing would be a bit more drawn out than how you describe. I think Kishiro has found the quickest and cheapest way of doing it with the Chugoku gate project, as it would undoubtedly require less reverse-engineering.
We need to also consider what would happen if Kusari, or any other house, decided to start using their own lanes and gates. This would be one of the first things the governments would consider, long before they began listening to the people with ideas about how to do it.
Politics.
There are countless scenarios and courses of action to play through, something I feel would be better done in a different medium or at the very least a different place in this one.
' Wrote:As for the Kusari gate....... instead of having 4 moving segments with a long beam running the gates length behind them, I suggest having three. re-texture/model them so it looks like a blooming flower when it opens up to fit the Kusari design ethic.
Sounds like a good way to design it. An Iris-inspired design could be quite beautiful.
' Wrote:I believe the process of stealing would be a bit more drawn out than how you describe. I think Kishiro has found the quickest and cheapest way of doing it with the Chugoku gate project, as it would undoubtedly require less reverse-engineering.
We need to also consider what would happen if Kusari, or any other house, decided to start using their own lanes and gates. This would be one of the first things the governments would consider, long before they began listening to the people with ideas about how to do it.
Politics.
There are countless scenarios and courses of action to play through, something I feel would be better done in a different medium or at the very least a different place in this one.
Agreed, what I wrote wasnt intended as a 1stop/done type way, but a breif overview of how to do it as part of a far logner idea.
Essently, sometime within a generation after the nationalization of the gates/lanes Kusari makes the beginings of their reverse engenering project.
It would make sense for it to be within a generation, as that generation or the one following it would be right annoied with IC still.
Following that, a slow drawnout several century long process of stealing data, corporate espionage, aquiring data from lane hackers on the sly, stealing parts from gate/lane construction sites once they have been opend, etc etc would slowley give Kusari the parts AND the data to make their own.
Once the basic principle is known, science will figure the rest within the span of a lifetime if there is a big enough need.
Finish up with the gate/lane construction projects in Kusari space (IE: Okinawa as one example).
The occasional deep space or Ageria rep goes missing along with the transport he/she was riding on, apply a few sharp insturments, a few jolts of electricity, a little waterboarding, and suddenly you have even more data (and just let the ship drift into a star to dispose of any evidence).
So within RP, it is entirely feasable that the Kusari are currently capable of building their own gates and lanes at this point in time.
However, building said gate/lane would of course wait until there was a pressing need.
IE: A gate needed for the war effort is destroyed or shot up, DSE refuses to work in a warzone, Liberty Govt wont let one of its big corps take a stance (especily against their bretonian allies) and internal pressure against Kusari (allready hinted at in various infocards) builds........ suddenly Kusari breaks out all of their pre-built parts, and speed builds a gate.
With Liberty, this would casue frosty relations.
However, they could always claim 'someone came up with it in their own' and semi pacify liberty, cause it IS possible, even if they do not belive it.
Alien tech or not, it operates based on Physics.
It looks similar ? Thats becasue form often imitates function.