Discovery Server

[Wolfpack98]

Okay. First, i'm not an active admin anymore. Those of you who know me and remember me know that I ran the Discovery Server for Igiss during the last year and half.

A lot of people didn't agree with me. A lot accused me of "admin bias". Even more thought I sucked, plain and simple.

However, there is one thing that EVERYONE should be aware of. Discovery Gaming Community and the servers it operats do *NOT* fall under the jurisdiction of any single country. Only the server owners fall under that jurisdiction. I believe the RP server falls under Cezh authority. the PVP server under British Authority. The server owners must follow their national laws, and so do the individual players.

However, the servers do NOT fall under the jusidiction of any sort of Bill of Rights. No constitution in the world can control these. They never can. Why? it's called "International Law."

Before someone yells that someone violated the rights as set forth in the US Constitution, it will never stand up in court. It must be proven and have tangible evidence. Recent court cases show that the internet has no national boundaries and as such don't qualify to be tried in court like this. What i've read on the forums lately (the ID threads) tells me that some of you have next to no understanding of the internet and it's dynamics.

I'm a Network Administrator as a real life job. I know the internet laws as it's required to know these laws to provide services for my company. US Constitution only applies to ME and my servers only. What happens ON the server, yes, applies to US Law, but what someone else does to another person does not. Violation of rights? only if there's a server rule that states specifically like that.

With Discovery, it was NEVER a democracy. An admin's rule is absolute. Yes, you can "appeal" the ruling, but you cannot argue it. You don't like it? Appeal it. Don't argue it. Calling a Vote of No Confidence on an admin is just utter bullsh*t and frankly, it's a cheap way out of an arguement.

I left this communtiy over this kind of crap. I can clearly see that nothing has changed. Nightfall now knows the situation I was in, and frankly, I feel bad for him.

Finally... This is supposed to be for fun. If you can't follow simple rules... Get the hell off of the server. If you can't live with the way the admins work? Get used to it or get out of dodge. It's not a democracy. Only person who can kick an admin off the team.. is Igiss. No one else can.

Don't like it? Tough. Life isn't supposed to be fair.

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User was banned for: Compromised account
Time left: (Permanent)

[heathensoul]

I don't think anybody here was ever thinking of actually sueing anyone (or more like: trying to do so).
All they wanted was to compare the situation to the way social systems they are used to work.
Usually, people don't have a problem with harsh punishments if they are justified.
However, sometimes punishment is dealt without the proper investigation first, and that is what pisses people of. That is what feels "unfair".

[Archelon]

Valid points Wolf...

Only addition I would have to this discussion is that the US Constitution applies to US Citizens. It is between the citizenry and the government. It is NOT between two citizens. The constitution is the government giving rights to the citizens and placing restrictions on itself. This does not apply between to citizens.

Also, if a law is violated on the internet and BOTH transgressor and victim reside within the US or its territories, then US Law has authority. If the transgressors or victims reside elsewhere, oh well. The one living in the US would be subject to US law, not the law of the other nation.

Let me point out here that if you threaten to find someone and cause them harm, then you can expect the FBI to become interested. Yes, you can get into trouble with the authorities within your own country for this stuff. Just read the papers or watch the news where pedophiles make contact with a minor over the internet and then attempt to contact them in person. So, yes, you can get into trouble - but only if you take it outside the realm of the virtual world.

Ok - more than 2 cents on the subject, but you get the point. Keep RL politics out of this please. We've got enough of it in the virtual world to have to bring up real life politics.

[Wolfpack98]

I don't think anybody here was ever thinking of actually sueing anyone (or more like: trying to do so).
All they wanted was to compare the situation to the way social systems they are used to work.
Usually, people don't have a problem with harsh punishments if they are justified.
However, sometimes punishment is dealt without the proper investigation first, and that is what pisses people of. That is what feels "unfair".

One's definition of "proper" investigation can differ from others.

However in a server admin world, it's not a social world. It's do or die. An Admin's authority is 100% Absolute and they can more or less do whatever they see fit with the evidence presented.. investigation or not.

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User was banned for: Compromised account
Time left: (Permanent)

[Archelon]

I don't think anybody here was ever thinking of actually sueing anyone (or more like: trying to do so).
All they wanted was to compare the situation to the way social systems they are used to work.
Usually, people don't have a problem with harsh punishments if they are justified.
However, sometimes punishment is dealt without the proper investigation first, and that is what pisses people of. That is what feels "unfair".

Agree - no such thing as the right to a fair trial here. Only to the extent the admins are willing to provide. As a pirate character, I'm used to this in RP. But then, I suppose I've earned that. :)

[Craines]

I agree with the Pariah. Sure, Hyldon said I was wrong, but meh, I don't give two shakes of a horse's hoof.

Someone once said it's an oligarchy. McNeo, maybe. That is a brilliant explanation. An oligarchy being, of course, a form of government where there is 'rule by few'.

That being said, I believe it is still acceptable for members to voice their concern to admins via public messages. But that's just me.

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[heathensoul]

"An Admin's authority is 100% Absolute"
"an oligarchy"

That sounds almost like you want it to be that way. And that's what I don't get.:blink:
If I were Admin, I wouldn't want to be compared to an absolutist ruler.
In my opinion, an Administrator should do just that. Administrate the server, help newbies, de-escalate tensions between players ("you behaved out of RP!" "nah, you did first") and be an overall calming element. All the time? That would be difficult, of course.

But: If there was ONE simple rule (that was stated in the ID violation thread earlier) that even an Admin had to follow, things would be a lot less troublesome for many... innocent until proven guilty.

[Wolfpack98]

"An Admin's authority is 100% Absolute"
"an oligarchy"

That sounds almost like you want it to be that way. And that's what I don't get.:blink:
If I were Admin, I wouldn't want to be compared to an absolutist ruler.
In my opinion, an Administrator should do just that. Administrate the server, help newbies, de-escalate tensions between players ("you behaved out of RP!" "nah, you did first") and be an overall calming element. All the time? That would be difficult, of course.

That's an opinion, but it's not reality. In reality a corporate net admin has to protect the server, at all costs.

When I ran Discovery, I protected the server itself from any possible hacking, rule violations, whatever. An Admin's job is *NOT* to be nice to the end-users. They can be if they choose to be, but it's not required. In fact, more often than not it's impossible to do so.

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User was banned for: Compromised account
Time left: (Permanent)

[Nightfall]

Wolf, thanks for the support.

Heathen, there are simple rules. That ID rule is simple. It's the disregard.

Ant's opinion, an old player, who declared to be leaving (and left) at least 3 times and got back. He says he will continue his ways. Rules do not apply to him?

My reply: Should I retroactively delete?

'If that gets your rocks off'? Is that the way you answer? I think I showed too much patience and tolerance. I think anyone would have just deleted and perma-banned him straight away. Would you go up to a judge, admit a crime and say 'Give me a death-sentence if that's what rocks yout boat'? I don't think so.

And then, we got Hylden's 'Holier than thou' attitude. Just because Dab didn't post that earlier. Hylden *WAS LUCKY* Dab didn't post that earlier. Next time I won't make such mistakes in my judgment. Don't worry about the investigation, there's not much needed here, one look at the character in IFSO tells the admin everything he/she needs to know.

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If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God? - from 'Nightfall' by I. Asimov
The Outcasts consider Siniestre Nube a sacred place for several reasons. Early explorers discovered a jumphole within the depths of the cloud that leads to a strange world of ringed stars and strange craft. All ships in the burrial ground are placed facing that hole to honor the Alien Spirits. - An Outcast rumor

[heathensoul]

Well, I never said the players react nicely and calmly themselves.
Which is exactly what is so trying about being an Admin. But they should still be above that.
I was a Game Master for an UO freeshard a while back (one level below an Admin there) and believe me, the players really pissed me off sometimes. But if they did, I just switched to my regular char and relaxed a little or did something else entirely... and most players don't actively want to make your work more difficult. Even newbies who break almost every rule there is, are (usually) thankful if a GM puts them calmly but decisively back on track.

As for the ID rules: Yes, they are clear. But the way FL works, it isn't always so easy. For example: I myself bought a new ship yesterday. Since I'm Lane Hacker aligned, I'm allowed to fly Liberty ships. But once I get that Lane Hacker Rep up and running, Liberty probably won't sell me that ship anymore. Instead they'll try to blow me to bits! So - yes. I hereby admit to the crime: I bought the ship before the rep, went to Mactan, did some missions and bribes and got the ID after I had already bought the ship!:ohmy:
Now, think what would've happened if something important came up in RL while trying to get that ID, forcing me to leave...

With this little example I just want to remind you of my proposition. Add a rule that allows your new chars some (EDIT: gotta add this: InGame-)time where the ID rule doesn't apply... Hylden's case would never have been blown outta proportion like that...