Well, if that talk is rising again i need to say that for now i can't work with model because of exam time in my uni. As my first attempt in modeling it can contain some issues in it, perhaps, i don't know. It working in game. But no sure about hitbox because i have no one to test it, i can't do it alone, and as i said, no time for it now.
Im sorry to say that in it's current form, I'm not really a fan of this model.
I can appreciate that, with the constraints on the design, and all the boxes it needs to tick, it's a very difficult job and getting this far takes a hell of allot of work.
However, it wouldn't be right for me not to raise my concerns about aspects of this model which I feel aren't appropriate for a corsair development on the Osiris hull.
The rear portion of the ship is mostly unchanged from the original Osiris model. Whilst I think it's right that areas remain visibly similar or unchanged to emphasise that this is a refit, rather than an entirely new ship, I think the narrow Osiris rear doesnt fit well with the much broader front end. I think so much mass at the front, without the engine section being expanded, would lead to it being underpowered. (in visual/RP terms)
The front end, where the majority of the changes have happened, seems to be an enlarged liberty-style front wedge (though the outline of the curve at the front is reversed). This shape, I feel, is a quintessential feature of Liberty/Order warship designs, and does not fit as a Corsair development onto the hull. This front wedge segment is also textured much in the same way as the front-wedge of a Liberty Dreadnought. As it's essentially additional (corsair) armour bolted onto the front of the Osiris shell, should it not be textured to reflect Corsair-metal/hull panels seen on other Corsair ships?
I'm also not sure I agree with the assumption that a Corsair redevelopment of the Osiris-concept Light Battleship would necessarily be "heavier" in terms of armour, mass or volume. Given the Corsairs already have their own design heavy battleship (although that /also/ needs a rework) I doubt they would make the only ship which bridges the massive functional gap between a Cruiser and a Dreadnought "heavier". Rather, I think the Corsairs would be interested in emphasising the Osiris' specific strengths, and maximising it's functionality in the unique niche of "light battleship" rather than pushing it towards being a heavier beast more akin to a dreadnought.
It is a beutiful model, and, aside from perhaps needing it's engine segment slightly enlarged to offset the size of the front, is perfect to be slotted in-game. However, I just dont think, for the reasons stated above, it's right for the Corsairs, especially in the niche of Light Battleship.
Well, for asking on this now i can't remember all the ideas i had when i had worked with it. Reading this thread can show all the way of changes that where made for model. Actually all that is made - made for a reason.
Front side isn't that large really, because here should be ship hangars, stuff rooms etc, but rear side contains engine and it's mass can be bigger then front side's mass. In space where no air resistance shape of ship isn't playing a big role, but mass plays.
And difference isn't that big.
Engine is remains as it is with little changes to place additional turret actually have a reason that changing engine could lead to remaking all rear side and ship will lost it's roots of Osiris. And this ship was positioned to be similar for Liberty\Order shipline from beginning, because its remake, it smells libertish because of purpose on saving design roots. Osiris is liberty ship too.
But front is anther story, i made a try to make nose different from Liberty\Order style without making it looks stupid and ridiculous.
' Wrote:The rear portion of the ship is mostly unchanged from the original Osiris model. Whilst I think it's right that areas remain visibly similar or unchanged to emphasise that this is a refit, rather than an entirely new ship, I think the narrow Osiris rear doesnt fit well with the much broader front end. I think so much mass at the front, without the engine section being expanded, would lead to it being underpowered. (in visual/RP terms)
The front end, where the majority of the changes have happened, seems to be an enlarged liberty-style front wedge (though the outline of the curve at the front is reversed). This shape, I feel, is a quintessential feature of Liberty/Order warship designs, and does not fit as a Corsair development onto the hull. This front wedge segment is also textured much in the same way as the front-wedge of a Liberty Dreadnought. As it's essentially additional (corsair) armour bolted onto the front of the Osiris shell, should it not be textured to reflect Corsair-metal/hull panels seen on other Corsair ships?
I'm also not sure I agree with the assumption that a Corsair redevelopment of the Osiris-concept Light Battleship would necessarily be "heavier" in terms of armour, mass or volume. Given the Corsairs already have their own design heavy battleship (although that /also/ needs a rework) I doubt they would make the only ship which bridges the massive functional gap between a Cruiser and a Dreadnought "heavier". Rather, I think the Corsairs would be interested in emphasising the Osiris' specific strengths, and maximising it's functionality in the unique niche of "light battleship" rather than pushing it towards being a heavier beast more akin to a dreadnought.
It is a beutiful model, and, aside from perhaps needing it's engine segment slightly enlarged to offset the size of the front, is perfect to be slotted in-game. However, I just dont think, for the reasons stated above, it's right for the Corsairs, especially in the niche of Light Battleship.
I would actually like to see a complete comparison to the Osiris before I comment, but eh.
To be honest, you want a light BS, and then you want more bulk on the engine bay, increasing the mass? Makes sense?
Well, to counter your point about the front of the hull of the ship, the Corsairs would not really have had much time to change the ship right? Obviously, as such, some things are going to stay the same.
It would have to heavier if you are making it. You look at the rest of your shipline and they seem to like bulk. Adding to that, if you are changing things here and there, without the technical expertise of The Order, you are not going to be using top of the line technology, but slightly larger variants which take up more space and mass.
From what I can see of the below, it follows the Osiris shape rather well. Perhaps a shrink in size, if needed, would be good.
' Wrote:I would actually like to see a complete comparison to the Osiris before I comment, but eh.
To be honest, you want a light BS, and then you want more bulk on the engine bay, increasing the mass? Makes sense?
Well, to counter your point about the front of the hull of the ship, the Corsairs would not really have had much time to change the ship right? Obviously, as such, some things are going to stay the same.
It would have to heavier if you are making it. You look at the rest of your shipline and they seem to like bulk. Adding to that, if you are changing things here and there, without the technical expertise of The Order, you are not going to be using top of the line technology, but slightly larger variants which take up more space and mass.
From what I can see of the below, it follows the Osiris shape rather well. Perhaps a shrink in size, if needed, would be good.
You seem to have misunderstood me.
I suggested ensuring the engine was in an appropreate proportion to the front. This was a suggestion to improve the model, and does not go anywhere towards making the model appropriate for the corsairs.
You seem to have missed my issue with the front hull, which is not that "things are going to stay the same" but that the front section has clearly been completely overhauled, and yet it looks like it was Liberty or the Order that did the job. The texture in particular (liberty gunmetal) should not envelop areas where the Corsairs have added armour.
At the front, even a patchwork of liberty-grey with corsair-brown would give the appropreate feeling that the design has been haphazardly built-upon by the Corsairs over many years, because it would demonstrate that where surface area has been added, the Corsairs have used their own hull panels, as is only plausible.
Regarding making the ship a "heavier" battleship, you refer to the shipline. Let's analyse that for a moment (current, and historical);
Legionnaire - Titan -Sleek, skeletal designs with small bodies and thin elongated wings.
M26 Lunchbox gunboat -Angular, simple shape but relatively sleek outline demonstrating fairly efficient use of resources.
M42 Imperator Gunboat -Very sleek outline, consiting of a central body and two outriggers, the only superfluous aspects are horn and spike decoration for the important purpose of intimidating victims of this quintessential pirate-ship into co-operation. Armour is slightly on the heavy side, but is barely more than the Order Gunboat (yet the Order are characterised as "going light"?) and is substantially less than the Rhineland and Bretonian equivalents, which are this ship's primary competition. The Imperator is therefore not heavy because of some Corsair obsession with armour, but because of a need to at-least attempt to match those of Bretonia and Rhineland which patrol the lifeblood tradelanes of Omega 5 and 7.
Praefect I cruiser- Bulky extravagent design and sister-ship to the Legate. This design was unltimately abandoned by a sleeker take on the concept, justifiable given the Corsairs limited access to resources, and many conflicts bringing high demand for quick fleet-building.
Praefect II cruiser- Much sleeker design with evident use of much fewer hull panels than the original, and a much smaller internal volume. More effective use of the Corsair's limited resources. Less heavily armoured than the Molly, Rogue, Bretonian and Rhineland equivalents, and equal to the Hessian Cruiser, it can hardly be considered as being heavier than it's competition and used as a precedent for "Corsairs going heavy".
Legate- Huge ship with an internal volume rivalling afew planets, and a shape that is neither effective with resources nor with crew. Difficult to justify in RP, no longer fitting with the shipline (since Praefect replace) and in desperate need of a revision. With an armour of 1 million, it sits amongst carriers, outclassing the Bretonian Battleship and Liberty Dreadnought, in my view totally inappropriately. (how the hell did the Corsairs get the resources and tech together to out-do the Liberty Dread, supposedly best of it's class?). Arguably an unsustainably sized ship for a sub-house that have to gather most of their resources from piracy, and are fighting wars on 10 fronts.
In every case, Corsair designs appear to be about maximising the advantages of each class, or attempting to match the competition, rather than a dogmatic obsession with increased mass and armour. The only exception to this; the Legate, in my view is inappropriately heavy, but again, was designed almost solely for the purpose of matching the Outcast Dreadnaught, which is also in my view oversized, hard to justify in RP, and far bigger than a non-house ought have.
In answer to the point about poorer technology, that's probably true. However, the extent to which heavier technology would lead to an expanded hull is uncertain. The original Osiris was designed to house, among other things, a cloaking generator. This is technology that the Order never shared, but which is still factored into the blueprints. Vanilla made comment again and again that the power required for cloaking even a fighter was enormous, and to cloak a battleship would require an unfathomable amount of power. We can only assume that all this involved big generators, possibly a number of them, combined with assoceated infrastructure running throughout the ship. Strip away the cloak, it's infrastructure and it's power generators, it can only be assumed that large sections of the Osiris would be left empty and purposeless; sections that could be stripped away. According to the OHC, who have pretty much dictated lore surrounding the Osiris since time and memorial, there are a host of other technologies that the Order diddn't include in what was given to the Corsairs to reproduce, but the space for which presumably was still allocated. There's therefore huge potential in the Corsair Osiris to cut sections that no longer have a purpose.
In addition, the OHC maintains that for the past 18 years the Order have had technicians maintaining sections of the ships. Without the Order's assistance, these would likely deteriorate. In some cases, I agree the Corsairs would simply replace them with less-compact equivalents, but in other cases they'd probably just let them rot, or cut these sections completely.
My principle concern is that we have a shipline that makes sense in terms of plausibility and RP.
' Wrote:You seem to have misunderstood me.
I suggested ensuring the engine was in an appropreate proportion to the front. This was a suggestion to improve the model, and does not go anywhere towards making the model appropriate for the corsairs.
You seem to have missed my issue with the front hull, which is not that "things are going to stay the same" but that the front section has clearly been completely overhauled, and yet it looks like it was Liberty or the Order that did the job. The texture in particular (liberty gunmetal) should not envelop areas where the Corsairs have added armour.
At the front, even a patchwork of liberty-grey with corsair-brown would give the appropreate feeling that the design has been haphazardly built-upon by the Corsairs over many years, because it would demonstrate that where surface area has been added, the Corsairs have used their own hull panels, as is only plausible.
Regarding making the ship a "heavier" battleship, you refer to the shipline. Let's analyse that for a moment (current, and historical);
Legionnaire - Titan -Sleek, skeletal designs with small bodies and thin elongated wings.
M26 Lunchbox gunboat -Angular, simple shape but relatively sleek outline demonstrating fairly efficient use of resources.
M42 Imperator Gunboat -Very sleek outline, consiting of a central body and two outriggers, the only superfluous aspects are horn and spike decoration for the important purpose of intimidating victims of this quintessential pirate-ship into co-operation. Armour is slightly on the heavy side, but is barely more than the Order Gunboat (yet the Order are characterised as "going light"?) and is substantially less than the Rhineland and Bretonian equivalents, which are this ship's primary competition. The Imperator is therefore not heavy because of some Corsair obsession with armour, but because of a need to at-least attempt to match those of Bretonia and Rhineland which patrol the lifeblood tradelanes of Omega 5 and 7.
Praefect I cruiser- Bulky extravagent design and sister-ship to the Legate. This design was unltimately abandoned by a sleeker take on the concept, justifiable given the Corsairs limited access to resources, and many conflicts bringing high demand for quick fleet-building.
Praefect II cruiser- Much sleeker design with evident use of much fewer hull panels than the original, and a much smaller internal volume. More effective use of the Corsair's limited resources. Less heavily armoured than the Molly, Rogue, Bretonian and Rhineland equivalents, and equal to the Hessian Cruiser, it can hardly be considered as being heavier than it's competition and used as a precedent for "Corsairs going heavy".
Legate- Huge ship with an internal volume rivalling afew planets, and a shape that is neither effective with resources nor with crew. Difficult to justify in RP, no longer fitting with the shipline (since Praefect replace) and in desperate need of a revision. With an armour of 1 million, it sits amongst carriers, outclassing the Bretonian Battleship and Liberty Dreadnought, in my view totally inappropriately. (how the hell did the Corsairs get the resources and tech together to out-do the Liberty Dread, supposedly best of it's class?). Arguably an unsustainably sized ship for a sub-house that have to gather most of their resources from piracy, and are fighting wars on 10 fronts.
In every case, Corsair designs appear to be about maximising the advantages of each class, or attempting to match the competition, rather than a dogmatic obsession with increased mass and armour. The only exception to this; the Legate, in my view is inappropriately heavy, but again, was designed almost solely for the purpose of matching the Outcast Dreadnaught, which is also in my view oversized, hard to justify in RP, and far bigger than a non-house ought have.
In answer to the point about poorer technology, that's probably true. However, the extent to which heavier technology would lead to an expanded hull is uncertain. The original Osiris was designed to house, among other things, a cloaking generator. This is technology that the Order never shared, but which is still factored into the blueprints. Vanilla made comment again and again that the power required for cloaking even a fighter was enormous, and to cloak a battleship would require an unfathomable amount of power. We can only assume that all this involved big generators, possibly a number of them, combined with assoceated infrastructure running throughout the ship. Strip away the cloak, it's infrastructure and it's power generators, it can only be assumed that large sections of the Osiris would be left empty and purposeless; sections that could be stripped away. According to the OHC, who have pretty much dictated lore surrounding the Osiris since time and memorial, there are a host of other technologies that the Order diddn't include in what was given to the Corsairs to reproduce, but the space for which presumably was still allocated. There's therefore huge potential in the Corsair Osiris to cut sections that no longer have a purpose.
In addition, the OHC maintains that for the past 18 years the Order have had technicians maintaining sections of the ships. Without the Order's assistance, these would likely deteriorate. In some cases, I agree the Corsairs would simply replace them with less-compact equivalents, but in other cases they'd probably just let them rot, or cut these sections completely.
My principle concern is that we have a shipline that makes sense in terms of plausibility and RP.
Wall of text response time.
I am looking at it and not seeing an issue, with the engine or the front. But, eh. Each to their own I suppose.
The Titan is sleek? The current Praefect is sleek? The M26 is sleek? The only thing that is remotely sleek is one of your fighter craft I saw in a signature somewhere and the current gunboat. (And the current GB has very sleek horns which completely suggest a sleek utilitarian nature. XD.)
Actually, we dumbed down our own Osiris technology, making the CV-1 which has an increased power-core, more firepower and slightly more agility. Then helped you make it with Order engineers help on your own shipyards. We would have "filled up" the "space".
You seem annoyed that we control the lore of our own ship here?
' Wrote:You seem annoyed that we control the lore of our own ship here?
In terms of plausibility and RP?
You mean the ship that you couldn't build that had to be built on Corsair shipyard by Corsair engineers and then given to the Order? I like that you suggest that the Corsair have no say in how the Osiris was built, being that the Corsairs are the ones who have been building it exclusively for most of it's existence. But hey, no big deal, you want to try and retcon the whole order/corsair relationship, go ahead and try, because to me at least, thats what it seems many in the Order are trying to do.
Do keep in mind, I speak for myself now and not the leadership of the Corsairs
Although, I do assume the only reason Nooblet is saying any of this is because he is from Australia.
Corsairs indeed have Osiris technology.
Just don't tell me Benitez, the Brotherhood 8 Osirises (Flagships for all the time, I think) and 3 dockable Osirises are present made by the Order?
Utilizing the best Corsair technology?
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