To: the average American

[Laowai]

#1 -- Islamic leaders (Al Qaeda just being one of many) call America the Great Satan.

#2 -- Christianity did not attack Iraq and Afghanistan ... so quit with the anti-Christian rhetoric.

#3 -- Let we Americans decide for ourselves. America was attacked ... not Europe.

1# So what? My point is, are Americans going to use the intolerance and stupidity of others as the standard by which they set their behavior? If so, please continue. I am not making Anti-Christian statements at all, and i challenge you to find something that i said that was; however its suits the conspiracy minded to think so. My point stands, if you want to say you are better than them, then BE better than them. I believe I have already in several posts outlined a comprehensive argument that addresses this which i do believe is not refuted.

#2 And Islam did not attack the United States? Your point being? Al Qaeda Wahhabi Muslims DID attack America, that is true, however ALL Muslims did not, and the Sufi AMERICAN citizens who wish to build a Mosque certainly did not. Just as we do not condemn ALL Christians for the actions of those who undertook the crusades, the actions of those who attacked the Atlanta Olympics, for those who have attacked abortion clinics, and for those who printed Bible references on the scopes of weapons issued to American service people in Afghanistan so should we not condemn ALL Muslims for the actions of those who acted on 9/11.

#3 Americans can decide for themselves, the unfortunate truth however is that since Neo-conservative imperialists have Hijacked the American Agenda, what the largely ill informed American public decides has global ramifications. The American public lost the right to say that American policy is unchallengeable by the rest of the world when America decided that she was no longer a self interested Republic and instead rather a global empire. American foreign policy now has global ramifications; and thus the rest of the globe, who have equally valid and legitimate views on this and who are affected by US foreign policy have a right to critique. And before i am declared an ""America basher" I would state that this argument is also one that is current within the USA itself.
To state simply, Europe was attacked, in Spain and in London, Australians were also attacked in Bali, but it is understandable that Americans in their self obsessed navel gazing would overlook this.
This "debate"has global ramifications, for better or for worse the USA has co-opted global allies into their "war on terror". This "mosque"(quotation makes intentional) debate has already been cited by fundamentalist Islamic groups such as the Taliban as a "win"for their side in the hearts and minds debate. Regardless of the numbers involved, it is not only Americans who are being killed in the "war on terror". Soldiers and citizens of allied nations are as well.

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[Jihadjoe]

#1 -- Islamic leaders (Al Qaeda just being one of many) call America the Great Satan.

#2 -- Christianity did not attack Iraq and Afghanistan ... so quit with the anti-Christian rhetoric.

#3 -- Let we Americans decide for ourselves. America was attacked ... not Europe.

Oh hang on... Just spotted this post thanks to Laowai. I'm not going to answer the first two points with regards to this, but I will say that europe was attacked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005...n_bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Moscow_Metro_bombings

Just to move back to the start of the issue. Why is it that there is this persistent and ongoing idea that Islam itself, as a collective mind attacked America? I mean... There are so many issues with that statement.

A. America is not the only place to have suffered terrorist attacks from fundamentalist relgious groups in recent years. Bali, Madrid, Mumbai, Moscow, London... This list goes on. Scale matters very little. I fail to see much difference in how tragic an event is whether it's 30 people who die or 300.

B. It's not Islam itself which has launched this attack. It is a group which proclaims itself Islamic. There is a very significant difference. One group of Muslims setting themselves up as an enemy shouldn't drag every muslim ever into the conflict as well.

C. Whether or not the groups which have launched these attacks are to be considered the agressors is something to be debated. One could argue that the middle east is rather rightfully pissed off at european and american foriegn policy regading the region. If you were to look at say... Iraq, you see an extraordinary sequence of events over many years which led to the situation we have today. I'm not going to go into the history, but the interventionalist (expansionalist?) ideals behind many of the actions the "great western democracies" have been involved in in the middle east have caused a great deal of harm to ordinary men and women in the region. For example, I'm fairly sure the (muslim) kurdish population in Iraq would rather America hadn't sold chemical weapons to Saddam Hussain's government.

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[yurineova]

#1 -- Don't read into what I said.

#2 -- I believe there is only one true God. Some accept him and some reject him.

#3 -- Those who have no belief in God tend to generalize and criticize and blame Christianity for all their woes while they give a pass to non-Christians.

#4 -- We are all related through Noah ... if you're a non-Christian and a non-Jew then you won't accept this to begin with since its based on the biblical record.

#5 -- It was not a Christian (or any anti-Muslim) who started this thread was it? Nope ... it was an anti-American ... one Zapp who has played his hand as an American hater. So go throw your darts at him for even bringing up the subject.

#6 -- Which category does your argument fall? I do hope your answer is not A or B.
-- A. argument out of spite
-- B. argument for the sake of argument
-- C. argument based on what you feel is right or wrong

Bottom line you're argument sounds a bit "hostile" ... maybe you'd rather digest what I wrote for a bit rather than do the "kill the Christian" routine so quickly ... yes?
Two types of people ... those that view life through a magnifying glass (always analyzing the details and never seeing what is plainly in front of their nose) and those who get the bigger picture. Which are you?

The only problem there is that even though a american hating person started the thread, it migrated towards religon. And no matter your reason for arguement, you still are contributing to the fight. You're gonna have darts thrown at you for being a part of the topic. Get used to it.

I'm just suprised Disco hasnt recieved any death threats yet for not only saying the name of their god, but quoting the south park episode and showing "so much predjudice and hatred"

yadda yadda yadda.

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signature goes here once its done!

[Marburg]

#1 -- Don't read into what I said.

#2 -- I believe there is only one true God. Some accept him and some reject him.

#3 -- Those who have no belief in God tend to generalize and criticize and blame Christianity for all their woes while they give a pass to non-Christians.

#4 -- We are all related through Noah ... if you're a non-Christian and a non-Jew then you won't accept this to begin with since its based on the biblical record.

#5 -- It was not a Christian (or any anti-Muslim) who started this thread was it? Nope ... it was an anti-American ... one Zapp who has played his hand as an American hater. So go throw your darts at him for even bringing up the subject.

#6 -- Which category does your argument fall? I do hope your answer is not A or B.
-- A. argument out of spite
-- B. argument for the sake of argument
-- C. argument based on what you feel is right or wrong

Bottom line you're argument sounds a bit "hostile" ... maybe you'd rather digest what I wrote for a bit rather than do the "kill the Christian" routine so quickly ... yes?
Two types of people ... those that view life through a magnifying glass (always analyzing the details and never seeing what is plainly in front of their nose) and those who get the bigger picture. Which are you?

Ok, I'll be a good sport & answer by number:

1- I figured my reply might get under your skin, I was just trying to inject a little rationality into what is obviously an irrational fear...you just happened to have the latest post to reply to at the time

2- You are more than welcome to believe in anything you like. If beveling in 'one true god' makes you happy, then hey, i'm happy for ya...

3- That is just a convenient generalization. Me? I don't claim that there is (or isn't a god) because the simple fact of the matter is, 'I don't know' & since I've outgrown religion I've learned to be quite a bit more tolerant of people of all stripes.

4- If believing that makes you happy, then more power to ya. Just so you know, though, stating historical info from a bible with nothing but faith to back it up doesn't hold any real credibility whatsoever...but again if that's what you like to think, then whatever floats your boat is fine with me.

5- Feel free to specifically define what you think an 'american hater' is, cause what I got in zapp's op was an attempt to point out alot of insanity going on with racists, bigots, & religious fear-mongering.

6- Pick whichever letter you like, cause you are going to believe what you believe no matter which one I would pick.

I've really no idea what you mean by the 'kill the christian' routine, so let me restate my ultimate point another way: Islam is no better or worse than any other religion & it's extremely idiotic to classify an entire faith from the actions of extremest groups. Yes, there are muslim nutbags out there, but then again, there are christian nutbags out there as well...If I were to use a bunch of the same stupid logic I see vomiting out of the TV news about this whole ground zero mosque thing, I would be led to believe that since muslims all seem to be terrorists because of a minority of extremeists, then all christians would also seem to be terrorists as well, based on the actions of their collection of extremeist groups.

I mean, seriously...it's insulting & honestly disheartening to me as an american to see how widespread the the intolerance & racist paranoia has grown for the past 9 years.

Luckily though, I'm convinced that the tabloid tripe that passes for journalism here in america is only going for the lowest common denominator for the sake of ratings & the sponsor dollar

So, all in all, here's what it all boils down to in a nutshell:

The community center will be run by a regular 'ol muslim, not an extremist allah screaming terrorist.

Muslims have a right to practice their faith wherever they want...just like everyone else does

Since there ain't nothin' wrong with that & since the thing is not even going to be on ground zero, I really don't understand what all this stupid hooplah is about.



For those that think a group of muslims shouldn't exercise their freedom of religion where they have every right to do so under the constitution only because they're muslim, then those people are fools

For those that think muslims have a right to practice their religion anywhere, just not in lower manhattan, then those people are fools with a caveat.

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[Exile]

#1 -- Islamic leaders (Al Qaeda just being one of many) call America the Great Satan.

#2 -- Christianity did not attack Iraq and Afghanistan ... so quit with the anti-Christian rhetoric.

#3 -- Let we Americans decide for ourselves. America was attacked ... not Europe.

#1- You are.

#3- You're right. Madrid, London and Moscow didn't get bombed. In my country, politicians such as Pim Fortuyn or writers like Theo van Gogh don't get horribly murdered for the things they do.

Get off your bloody high horse Yank, it's affecting the world, not just you.

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[Rodent]

Small clarification. No Religion on Earth advocates the use of violence, from my limited information. It has just been mis-used, mis-interpreted by various sorts of people for some sort of gain. Basic human nature. Just like most things, it is being used as a lever to get something, Religion is just quite a large lever, and it's not just Islamic extremists of today, it has been done before.

Please do not go about making generalizations, I live in a Country with a larger Islamic population than many of your countries' entire populations, and suffice it to say, if they all had been causing trouble, India would be screwed. Most of them are just normal people, it's just a few extremist groups that are making the entire Religion and it's followers look bad.

It is most probably an ignorant sort of view from me *shrugs*

[Agmen of Eladesor]

#1- You are.

#3- You're right. Madrid, London and Moscow didn't get bombed. In my country, politicians such as Pim Fortuyn or writers like Theo van Gogh don't get horribly murdered for the things they do.

Get off your bloody high horse Yank, it's affecting the world, not just you.

Actually, I called him on that one here myself...

The problem is - and I think this goes back to part of what Zapp alluded to in his first post, whether he intended to do so or not.

America is NOT Europe. The people of America - and by that, I'm quite literally referring to almost everyone not residing in New York or California - you know, the other 55 states (thanks, BHO, for that memorable quote -:P)... we have a certain tolerance level. Unlike most of Europe, where you guys reach your tolerance level and then say, well, okay, we'll be namby-pamby and maybe let you guys do more mean and violent things to us to get your way...

Americans pretty much say screw you, raise their middle finger, and start shooting. It's in our heritage and in our blood - we still stand with you when it counts, but we fought to get AWAY from your control.

(Which I suppose actually is a good thing - otherwise I think two little happenings in Europe might have ended a bit differently....)

That's one reason why the current elected leadership in BOTH parties in this country is running scared - granted, the Dems more scared than Republicans. The sleeping giant of the American populace has been awakened. Someone is going to get thumped - and we really don't care who.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Colonel Z.e.r.o.]

I have a few words about the hoopla surrounding the mosque being constructed a few blocks from Ground Zero. These aforementioned words are aimed mainly at people too blind to invest any time in educating themselves as to the difference between Muslims and extremists. Really, it’s more than Muslims. There’s extremists in every culture. If we are to judge all of Islam on the actions of Al-Qaeda and other splinter terrorist and extremist organizations, then we are obligated to judge all of Christianity on the actions of Catholics during the Spanish Inquisition and, more recently, the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis.

“But there’s more to us!” you may object. And you are correct in doing so. Is it such a leap of logic, therefore, to realize that there is more to Islam than those dedicated to the “jihad”? Beyond that, is it so hard to realize that there is more to a group of people than the broad brushstrokes we mentally paint them with?

Islam isn’t your enemy. The only enemy you have is your own ignorance and fear; conquer those, and you have no reason to hate or discriminate. Without those things, the world will be a much better place. 
Needless to say, I'm more than a little tired of this all...

It's all a bull**** diversionary tactic. After the attacks went down people (with the help of the media) reinvented the image of a terrorist to be men of middle eastern descent and by extension Muslims. Before 9/11 Arabs...uhh I mean middle eastern people were just like anyone else, at least to the "average" American. People who have had little understanding of what Islam was and the typical characteristics and values the believers were practically brainwashed with all the nativities, half truths, and straw-man arguments typically pinned to a relatively ignored society. With the mosque (a symbol of Islam) being built within earshot of the site of one of the most deadly attacks on American soil caused by individuals who could be traced back to the middle east, the mainstay of Islam would seem to an ignorant or a very "us vs. them" minded person as an insult and an example of "poetic injustice." Which by the way is bull****. People need to stop categorizing others by the actions of those who are related to them by only religion or ethnicity. Furthermore when most people have such a Hollywood influenced idea of middle eastern people and a wartime propaganda nourished belief of what Islam is.

At one point it was accepted, like how it was ok for young white people to patronize black adults as lower or inferior to them because the mindset and general upbringing was embedded with this idea, like how to treat a lady, how to treat a negro. Now doing that on a public stage will ore than likely have quite of few of your relationships disown you, unless of course you convolve it with bull**** ethics that they can't understand or easily poke holes into. In the same way the view towards Islam and it's followers has gotten slightly better than at the start of the war, I'd still say it's gonna take quite a bit of brain washing, oversimplification, and positive representation before the media and popular decides to slam on the brakes after realizing that mocking Islam and pinning Arabs with extremists agendas only gets a 49% approval on rotten tomatoes.

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Nathan's Log || The "Real Story" of Lenox Casper

[Politus]

Jews still have it worse.

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"Things will not calm down, Daniel Jackson. They will, in fact, calm up."

[Exile]

America is NOT Europe. The people of America - and by that, I'm quite literally referring to almost everyone not residing in New York or California - you know, the other 55 states (thanks, BHO, for that memorable quote - )... we have a certain tolerance level. Unlike most of Europe, where you guys reach your tolerance level and then say, well, okay, we'll be namby-pamby and maybe let you guys do more mean and violent things to us to get your way...

Americans pretty much say screw you, raise their middle finger, and start shooting. It's in our heritage and in our blood - we still stand with you when it counts, but we fought to get AWAY from your control.

Yeah, you, as stereotype "patriotic american" know how we do things here in Europe, amirait? If there's one thing I hate, it's blindness like this.

Europe has not reached her "limit" because things are fine as they are here now. Things happened, and those responsible were taken care of. We're just not big fans of bombing half the world killing thousands just because we lost a tower or two. Europe actually seems to care for the world.

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