Much as I'd love to make another comment in favor of my argument, I'm going to abstain for the moment.
However, I want both sides of the argument to remember this: This is a not only a Mosque. Yes, a Mosque is part of it, but only a very small part. It is primarily a community center.
People seem to be forgetting this in places.
I'll be back with an actual argument rather than just a reminder later, assuming this hasn't totally devolved into conspiracy theorists pointing fingers and screaming and random people making snide comments about America's parentage.
Religion and belief are excellent soil and fertilizer for the seeds of ignorance. I don't want to badmouth any religion here, but there were and still are some people who have realized the potential of putting one's "truth" as the "truth" written in any holy book. I've heard about a Islam school somewhere in Africa (I can't remember where exactly) where the kids are being taught to recite all Suras of the Koran perfectly. While that isn't so bad itself, the children have mostly no idea what the Suras all mean and I fear that's the case in many other Islam schools in various countries.
Do you know what "jihad" actually means? It's struggle, effort, not (just) in terms of battle, but rather in peaceful and productive activities. For example: You have a job and your jihad is to do that job well. The media has done a "good" job to cover all peaceful aspects of jihad and bring the battle into the foreground until the term is known as "holy war". I was pretty surprised about the jihad's actual meaning myself when I first heard it, so that's ignorance right here. I just thought I'd share this with you.
As for the actual topic itself, I really don't see what's so bad about a mosque being built near ground zero. Just make peace with the muslims who see their religion as a way of life worth living rather than those who use the Koran as war propaganda.
Personally,it does not matter to me if they build it or not.
I was born and raised a roman catholic.......but watching the world change through the last 6 decades through my own eyes has lead me to this conclusion.....people treat each other differently based on their religeon the same way as they treat each other based on their skin color.
Nobody stops to think about things like.....if their skin is dark,its a genetic adaptation to the climate that their ancesters developed to deal with their surroundings.Its the same with any other skin color.
Religion is a belief that people have to comfort them through good and bad times.It helps to explain things that are not readly explainable......like ancient people called something that they didn't understand magic.It's not magic,it's just that they didn't understand it,so they had to call it something.
The "war" between christianity and muslim goes back far enough for me to see that its all just a power struggle over people , land , and resources. "They have something we want....lets take it." has been the thinking for thousands of years.
And untill people get over their petty self-important way of thinking, humanity will never get out amongst the stars.We need to start thinking like human-beings....not catholics,or black,or americans.
Embrace the cultual heritage,but dont let it cloud the whole BIG picture.
And who is to say who is right and who is wrong......for all we know,we could just be some inter-galactic middle-schooler's science project.
Food for though there.
First, yes, Americans are stupid racists. I will freely admit that. We as a country need to learn to be tolerant of people and stop following the voices of an increasingly small yet, unfortunately, an increasingly vocal farther-right-wing majority and develop educated views on political matters (and then VOICE those opinions!).
That said, whoever had the great idea to build a mosque a couple blocks from the site of the most memorable and significant terrorist attack in recent American history - blamed entirely on a group of Muslims - probably hadn't thought it over very well. What were they thinking? They KNOW the majority of Americans hate their guts right now and yet they choose to basically blow a raspberry in the populace's face? That would be like the Vatican buying a big patch of land right next to the Masjid al-Haram and building a church the size of the Cathedral of Seville there with 50-foot-tall statues of its most successful generals/kings/emperors from the Crusades. It's inviting trouble. I have no trouble with them building a Mosque there, but everybody else in this country does, and the Muslims know that, yet willingly choose to do so. This does not speak of intelligence; only spite.
Quote:Quick comment - we thought that Panzer was the Leader, Swift. -Agmen
' Wrote:That said, whoever had the great idea to build a mosque a couple blocks from the site of the most memorable and significant terrorist attack in recent American history - blamed entirely on a group of Muslims - probably hadn't thought it over very well. What were they thinking?
That would be someone doing a calculated insult. That happened here in my town when they built a Japanese Auto Factory on the Bataan Memorial Highway and as the first CEO put the nephew of Isoruku Yamamoto in charge of it. (Unfortunately, that plan ended up backfiring on the main head of the company when that factory became quite successful, but that's sales and economics biting you in the butt.)
Part of the problem with the definition of Ground Zero is what do you consider to be Ground Zero - the site where the towers stood, or the area around that as well. The nose gear from one of the planes DID hit the building in question, after all - so it's not like it wasn't an uninvolved location, after all.
I suppose I'm going to turn this back around and reverse it. There are already 40 some odd mosques in New York City right now, and quite literally thousand all over the country, because America is actually quite tolerant.
How many Christian Churches are there in Mecca or Medina? (One, but that's Mecca, Indiana - not the one in Saudi Arabia.) Since practicing any other religion besides Islam is illegal in Saudi Arabia - that pretty much says just how tolerant they really are, and shows how duplicitous our liberals really are. Political Correctness can only go so far - at some point you have to take a stand for what is right and say no more.
Either that or just go open a Third Reich Souvenier Stand in Auschwitz. (I'm not invoking Godwins law here, this is IMHO a valid comparison - especially when you have people like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad saying that the holocaust didn't happen.)
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
You could have addressed the message to the average European as well, since we too have this problem on our hands.
I'd like to oppose your viewpoint, however. I do not wish to be stereotypical, but we have never seen so many undercover acts of terrorism from any other follower of a political idea or a religion. Nazis, the KKK and the Spanish inquisition have all done their horrific actions in the open, which does not apply to the muslim terrorists who prefer to deceive their targets by appearing as a regular person.
Since their tactic is attacking anyone and everyone in a covert manner, never letting their enemy know when they would strike, one always has to be suspicious. Terrorists appear as everyday people, lack distinctive uniforms which the nazis, the KKK and all the other similar groups had.
Consider me a racist/islamophobe/nazi all you want, but that's my viewpoint and I can totally understand those who don't put their ultimate trust into every single arab person or muslim they meet.
Oh, btw. Building a mosque near Ground Zero is about as provocative as building a Soviet war memorial near Katyń.
' Wrote:You could have addressed the message to the average European as well, since we too have this problem on our hands.
Problem, sir? I can't help but wonder what you mean with that. There's a mosque in my town, one in those next to mine as well, in cities, everywhere where you'd find a church ; there's a mosque here. And we don't mind. You know, open minded, actual freedom of speech and all that. Muslims and Christians get along fine here. Hell, we have had muslims damning their own people for that 9/11 stuff you lot just can't seem to let go, and I have only once heard a muslim say that she thought 9/11 was a good idea. She wasn't terribly smart, either.
Perhaps if America was a bit less socially.. Not so very bright, to put it nicely, this wouldn't be an issue. They're people, not just followers of Islam.
You pretty much took one sentence out of what I said and responded to it irrelevant of my point.
Regardless, you live in the Netherlands, right? The Netherlands is where Geert Wilders and his albeit popular Party of Freedom is gaining head in the recent elections, right?
I don't think that means every other Dutch person would agree with you.
Quote:Either that or just go open a Third Reich Souvenier Stand in Auschwitz. (I'm not invoking Godwins law here, this is IMHO a valid comparison - especially when you have people like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad saying that the holocaust didn't happen.)
Though of course, there is a major difference. What happened at Auschwitz can be directly attributed to the Third Reich etc, though the bombing to muslims cannot.
Perhaps a fairer comparison would be to say opening up a German souvenir shop in Auschwitz, which would be stereotyping all germans as Nazis, just as all Muslims are being stereotyped as Terrorists. Actually, I'm sure there is a German Souvenir shop in in Auschwitz anyway.
WARNING: Do not watch all of my avatar UNLESS you want to waste over 2 minutes of your life. Add me on skype: Disparagess
' Wrote:You pretty much took one sentence out of what I said and responded to it irrelevant of my point.
Regardless, you live in the Netherlands, right? The Netherlands is where Geert Wilders and his albeit popular Party of Freedom is gaining head in the recent elections, right?
I don't think that means every other Dutch person would agree with you.
Geert Wilders isn't only about "Down with the Islam". I'm going to support him with the next election based on his other ideas, less bull in the second chamber, more money into care, less overseas fundings etc.
Regardless, a topic for another thread.
Quote:Religion: Grownups battling each other over who has the best imagination friend.
Wait a tick, south park will have an episode in two months.