I find the ignorance and hypocrisy surrounding this issue coming out of the USA to be pretty appalling. Have been watching this one pretty closely for a while, there are a list of pretty common talking points, ill address each in point form:
* Its not a mosque, its a cultural center that has a mosque in it.
*Its not at ground Zero, its two blocks away, you cannot see it from ground Zero. If we are to start saying "ground Zero is wherever debris fell" then where does that end? Bits of the plane? Fuel residue? Dust?
*The Imam in charge is not an extremist, he is known as a moderate. There is no credible evidence linking him to terrorist groups. He has worked for the FBI and the Bush Administration in work against extremism and has flown international on state department funds under a Republican administration.
* The Muslims involved in this mosque are Sufis - a moderate form of Islam. For the most part, the Muslims who attacked the USA were Wahhabi.
*Saudi Arabia is Whabbi. How's that alliance working out for you?
*Muslims from Al Qaeda attacked the USA - Islam did not.
*Islam is not a monolithic whole, just as Christianity isn't. Al Qaeda is not Islam. Al Qaeda attacked the USA, Islam did not.
* 59 Muslim Americans died in the Sept 11 attacks. Including one Muslim member of the New York Fire department who went back into the towers with his collegues to help rescue people trapped. He was killed when the tower he was in collapsed.
* You either respect and revere the constitution or you don't. Muslim Americans are protected under the constitution and have a right to build. These rights are not negotiable. Religious freedom is one of America's founding principles, you either have freedom to worship, or you do not. "Inalienable" means your rights cannot be taken away from you, and you cannot give them up.
*"They have the right, but shouldn't do it" does not equate. This argument still lumps ALL Muslims into the one bag, once again: Islam did not attack America. There are estimated to be upwards of 1.8 - 2 million Muslim Americans in the USA today alone. Did they attack America too? If not? Why shouldn't they exercise their constitutional rights?
* 0ver 4000 US service people lost their lives in Iraq in a war apparently to liberate Muslims. Liberty matters then, why are American Muslims asked not to exercise theirs?
* There is no similar public outcry over the proximity of Christian Churches to Crime scenes and Murders committed by Fundamentalist Christians in the US. There is no outcry over the proximity of Catholic Churches to public Schools and Children's daycare centers.. Why the discrepancy?
*"We wouldn't let the Japanese build around Pearl Harbour". From what I've read, there are at least 5 Japanese restaurants within walking distance of Pearl Harbour, if someone in Honolulu wants to confirm go for it.
* "How many Churches are there in Mecca? In Medina". This argument means you are effectively using someone else's intolerance as the benchmark for your own. As a nation that likes to take the high minded "American exceptionalist" line so often its interesting to see that American Exceptionalism goes out the window when mass bigotry and ignorance on the part of so many Americans needs to be justified. Be exceptional, be high minded, stand by your principles and the rule of law which as a nation you so ardently profess to believe in. If not, continue to let the intolerance of others be the standard by which you set your own behavior.
' Wrote:I find the ignorance and hypocrisy surrounding this issue coming out of the USA to be pretty appalling. Have been watching this one pretty closely for a while, there are a list of pretty common talking points, ill address each in point form:
* Its not a mosque, its a cultural center that has a mosque in it.
*Its not at ground Zero, its two blocks away, you cannot see it from ground Zero. If we are to start saying "ground Zero is wherever debris fell" then where does that end? Bits of the plane? Fuel residue? Dust?
*The Imam in charge is not an extremist, he is known as a moderate. There is no credible evidence linking him to terrorist groups. He has worked for the FBI and the Bush Administration in work against extremism and has flown international on state department funds under a Republican administration.
* The Muslims involved in this mosque are Sufis - a moderate form of Islam. For the most part, the Muslims who attacked the USA were Wahhabi.
*Saudi Arabia is Whabbi. How's that alliance working out for you?
*Muslims from Al Qaeda attacked the USA - Islam did not.
*Islam is not a monolithic whole, just as Christianity isn't. Al Qaeda is not Islam. Al Qaeda attacked the USA, Islam did not.
* 59 Muslim Americans died in the Sept 11 attacks. Including one Muslim member of the New York Fire department who went back into the towers with his collegues to help rescue people trapped. He was killed when the tower he was in collapsed.
* You either respect and revere the constitution or you don't. Muslim Americans are protected under the constitution and have a right to build. These rights are not negotiable. Religious freedom is one of America's founding principles, you either have freedom to worship, or you do not. "Inalienable" means your rights cannot be taken away from you, and you cannot give them up.
*"They have the right, but shouldn't do it" does not equate. This argument still lumps ALL Muslims into the one bag, once again: Islam did not attack America. There are estimated to be upwards of 1.8 - 2 million Muslim Americans in the USA today alone. Did they attack America too? If not? Why shouldn't they exercise their constitutional rights?
* There is no similar public outcry over the proximity of Christian Churches to Crime scenes and Murders committed by Fundamentalist Christians in the US. There is no outcry over the proximity of Catholic Churches to public Schools and Children's daycare centers.. Why the discrepancy?
*"We wouldn't let the Japanese build around Pearl Harbour". From what I've read, there are at least 5 Japanese restaurants within walking distance of Pearl Harbour, if someone in Honolulu wants to confirm go for it.
* "How many Churches are there in Mecca? In Medina". This argument means you are effectively using someone else's intolerance as the benchmark for your own. As a nation that likes to take the high minded "American exceptionalist" line so often its interesting to see that American Exceptionalism goes out the window when mass bigotry and ignorance on the part of so many Americans needs to be justified. Be exceptional, be high minded, stand by your principles and the rule of law which as a nation you so ardently profess to believe in. If not, continue to let the intolerance of others be the standard by which you set your own behavior.
Done.
Now that's a guy with which I can talk. Make love not war!
I have no statistical data to support this claim, but it seems that in the history of mankind, more people has died in the name of what humans interpret "God" than any other reason . . . (Land, resources, etc.)
But one thing I would like to point out . . .
Many people here is pointing out Americans to be racists, hateful, and ignorant towards Islam and their followers . . . and you are correct in making this claim . .
However, in the many Skype chats that I have had with people from everywhere over the years with folks: I have found out, for the most part, that people of other lands are just as racist, hateful, and ignorant about other cultures as we are. (perhaps not the same cultures, but just the same general scenario in my opinion).
Here is what it all boils down to: I believe in something, you do not. I think you are wrong and hate you for it. Something happens and I judge an entire race for thinking you all think the same way as the few that disagrees with me . .
Am I wrong on this?
--- " I might not be much help, but by God, I'm all the help you got" ---
EFFIN' ROLEPLAY GUYS ... off to flood we go for that - Hoodlum
Quote:However, in the many Skype chats that I have had with people from everywhere over the years with folks, I have found out, for the most part, that people of other lands are just as racist, hateful, and ignorant about other cultures as we are. (perhaps not the same cultures, but just the same general scenario in my opinion).
Whilst it might be true, I think that America above all has a more of an active hatred, whereas other countries hatred have more of a distasteful feel. The way I've seen America act to it, it's like they're openly racist to such communities. People I know might not like certain races, but they don't go forming some kind of hate group about it, nor do they openly describe their hatred for any certain race. Other places (especially where I live) just keep it to themselves.
WARNING: Do not watch all of my avatar UNLESS you want to waste over 2 minutes of your life. Add me on skype: Disparagess
' Wrote:Whilst it might be true, I think that America above all has a more of an active hatred, whereas other countries hatred have more of a distasteful feel. The way I've seen America act to it, it's like they're openly racist to such communities. People I know might not like certain races, but they don't go forming some kind of hate group about it, nor do they openly describe their hatred for any certain race. Other places (especially where I live) just keep it to themselves.
I won't argue with that . . Perhaps it is because of freedom of speech that anyone here can voice an opinion or idea no matter how crazy that idea is . . .
I just think that it is sad that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism . . worships the Same exact God; yet their differences on what to believe and how to worship God brings humans to a point of hatred towards their fellow man.
I personally try to be a religious person myself (I didn't say I am successful at it), and I try not to judge another for what they believe in . .
For me, it's like this: You do what you want to do as long as it don't cause any harm to others, and I do the same.
Perhaps this is only a pipe dream, but if everyone could follow this, I really believe we wouldn't have the problems we are having today . . .
--- " I might not be much help, but by God, I'm all the help you got" ---
EFFIN' ROLEPLAY GUYS ... off to flood we go for that - Hoodlum
I guess it is only a matter of time when people who do not appreciate past or present missbehavings of big countries like USA or Russia or British Empire will get their hands on nuclear weapons. Then everybody will die and there will be problem no more. So I think it is best to listen to some good music and other pleasant stuff while it is possible.
' Wrote:I guess it is only a matter of time when people who do not appreciate past or present missbehavings of big countries like USA or Russia or British Empire will get their hands on nuclear weapons. Then everybody will die and there will be problem no more. So I think it is best to listen to some good music and other pleasant stuff while it is possible.
You know... I think you'r onto something there... mildly similar to Terminator... judgement day is inevitable (or in this case, where prejudices and religion cause our own near-extinction)
Enjoy life while we've got it, and let who-ever else do what-ever else they want... That's something I do...
DISCLAIMER: The above statement is meant with a modicum of common sense, and 'anything' refers to activities within sensible limits... blah blah blah...
Laowai, you were doing great until you got to this line:
Quote:"They have the right, but shouldn't do it" does not equate.
Correct me if I misunderstand, but what it looks like you said is that regardless of whether it's a good idea or not, an action should be carried through as long as it's legal. C'mon...that's silly.
To use a much less controversial example, sometimes when Walmart tries to build a new store in certain areas the local community protests it and prohibits the building. Similarly, if two thirds of New Yorkers don't want this cultural center built there - doesn't that count for something, especially considering that it's their city?