' Wrote:Laowai, you were doing great until you got to this line:
Correct me if I misunderstand, but what it looks like you said is that regardless of whether it's a good idea or not, an action should be carried through as long as it's legal. C'mon...that's silly.
To use a much less controversial example, sometimes when Walmart tries to build a new store in certain areas the local community protests it and prohibits the building. Similarly, if two thirds of New Yorkers don't want this cultural center built there - doesn't that count for something, especially considering that it's their city?
You are making the same mistake that most of those opposed to it are - not asking the question about "why" people think its a bad idea?
Its not a bad idea at all. There are already 2 other Islamic centers near ground Zero, one of which was established before the World Trade center was constructed - people are making the mistake of equating all of Islam with the people who attacked the USA on 911. They are venting without using their heads.
If people don't want it there because it violates the local aesthetics, looks out of place, blocks someone's view, will make too much noise or will draw neer-do-wells and undesirables then you have a civic planning issue that can be handled like any other civic planning issue in any city, by the laws and statutes that govern said community.
Why do 2/3rds of New Yorkers not want it there? Is it because they don't like the color? Or is it because they, like so many on one side of this argument are equating the cultural center with the people that attacked the trade centers out of some flawed and uninformed prejudice? If so.. then, No, it doesn't matter that 2/3 of New Yorkers don't want it, if their objections are based in prejudice and ignorance then their objections are, quite frankly, wrong.
Freedom of religion is a constitutional right in the USA. American Muslims have a right to build a center to gather, eat, chat and yes pray. Rights are not subject to majority approval and are not subjected to popular votes - there is a good reason for that. Popular approval of certain rights in some American States for example would have meant you had African Americans without the vote. Popular "vote" on rights in my own Country of Australia in the past no doubt would have ended up with similar injustices. In the USA, rights are inalienable as I said, they cannot be taken away simply because in the heat of passion and anger and fear the "mob" deems them inconvenient.
' Wrote:I find the ignorance and hypocrisy surrounding this issue coming out of the USA to be pretty appalling. Have been watching this one pretty closely for a while, there are a list of pretty common talking points, ill address each in point form:
Fortunately, this debate on the subject of the Mosque allows for cathartic release and reduction of ignorance. If such a tradegy happened in another country the response would not be a debate. I, for one, hope the discourse continues. It allows for a better understanding of Islam and Christianity.
Overall, it shall draw a crisp line and all shall be able to come to their own conclusions.
To be honest zapp, I'm surprised that you dont know better after so long.
Religion is a touchy subject.
But to contribute, heres the slight problem; When your Religion is a bunch of fanatical nutjobs who are told they will get 72 virgins if they suicide bomb america, dont you think thats a slight problem?
People arent ready to get over 9/11, especially after Al Queda, who are muslin/islamic, whatever, destroyed oneo f the symbols of america, they dont want a symbol of those who destroyed it put up right next door. It would be like putting a shrine for hitler and the nazis right next door to a jewish temple, it just isnt right.
Furthermore, I dont see Catholics carrying on the inquisition anymore, and they suffered greatly for their crime. Me, I'm Lutheran. You dont see me parading about it, its my faith, it lets me sleep at night.
Logic doesnt matter to the masses, only what makes them feel comfortable and right. And a Mosque by Ground Zero does neither. Sorry, but no cigar.
' Wrote:To be honest zapp, I'm surprised that you dont know better after so long.
Religion is a touchy subject.
But to contribute, heres the slight problem; When your Religion is a bunch of fanatical nutjobs who are told they will get 72 virgins if they suicide bomb america, dont you think thats a slight problem?
People arent ready to get over 9/11, especially after Al Queda, who are muslin/islamic, whatever, destroyed oneo f the symbols of america, they dont want a symbol of those who destroyed it put up right next door. It would be like putting a shrine for hitler and the nazis right next door to a jewish temple, it just isnt right.
Furthermore, I dont see Catholics carrying on the inquisition anymore, and they suffered greatly for their crime. Me, I'm Lutheran. You dont see me parading about it, its my faith, it lets me sleep at night.
Logic doesnt matter to the masses, only what makes them feel comfortable and right. And a Mosque by Ground Zero does neither. Sorry, but no cigar.
I think that Zapp's point is that you cannot judge a whole by its extreme individuals. Christianity, for instance, which is a religion that preaches peace at all costs, love for all, including enemies, shunning of revenge, violence and hatred, still contains a lot of extremists, idiots and delusional people who twist its beliefs and do some bad, bad things, and I don't see why the inhabitants of Jerusalem (crusades) or Spain (inquisition) would have the right to demand a ban for Christian churches being built there or encourage hatred for those who declare themselves Christians.
The point here is that those who did the monstrosity known as 9/11, as well as those who performed the vile acts in the Crusades, or tortured people in the times of the Inqusition, or any extreme examples of any religion out there, are not the true representatives of those religions.
I'm sure that you as a Lutheran, or anyone of any religious denomination, or atheist, or agnostic, wouldn't want muslims or members of any religion or group out there hating your children or yourself because they know of an incident where members of the same group as yourself did a lot of wrong against someone he or she loves.
<span style="font-familyalatino Linotype">
<span style="color:#000000">All morons hate it when you call them a moron.
Or putting a Israeli fortress right next to the Al Aqsa mosque, am I right?
To be honest it never ceases to amaze me how humans have the capacity to be completely preoccupied by the most ridiculous of prejudices, when the world economy, health, peace and even the climate system itself is literally collapsing all around us.
Obama could be a muslim! America will no doubt die if that is the case. Which imaginary wizard in the sky does the president believe in is totally more important than everything and anything else. Same applies to the temple in New York. The so called controversy is fueled by ignorance, foolishness - or just plain idiocy and bigotry and christian fundamentalism.
' Wrote:I think that Zapp's point is that you cannot judge a whole by its extreme individuals. Christianity, for instance, which is a religion that preaches peace at all costs, love for all, including enemies, shunning of revenge, violence and hatred, still contains a lot of extremists, idiots and delusional people who twist its beliefs and do some bad, bad things, and I don't see why the inhabitants of Jerusalem (crusades) or Spain (inquisition) would have the right to demand a ban for Christian churches being built there or encourage hatred for those who declare themselves Christians.
The point here is that those who did the monstrosity known as 9/11, as well as those who performed the vile acts in the Crusades, or tortured people in the times of the Inqusition, or any extreme examples of any religion out there, are not the true representatives of those religions.
I'm sure that you as a Lutheran, or anyone of any religious denomination, or atheist, or agnostic, wouldn't want muslims or members of any religion or group out there hating your children or yourself because they know of an incident where members of the same group as yourself did a lot of wrong against someone he or she loves.
Actually, I WOULD be fine with that. If they believe in thier religion , thats great, jsut dont do it around me. Just like I dont do it around here.
I could give my opinions about every religion, but it would be highly offensive, and most likely not only get the thread locked, but myself banned.
What I, or anyone else belives n doesnt belong on forums such as these. Plain and simple.
Whether or not what you say makes sense does not matter. When people are hurt, they look for someone to blame. Al Queda did it. Great, and? They are radical muslim extremists. So the General Populace see it as Muslim are bad.
I said in the above that the General Public does not want it nor are they ready for it. I did not, however, express that I was for or agaisnt such a thing, because to be honest it doesnt affect me. I dont live in NY, I never been there. They can put a shrine to the devil there for all I care, its irrelevant to me. Its liek me voting on taxes for NY, I dont live there so why should I?
And Lutherans, theyre kinda in the shadows really, rarely heard of. Practically catholic, just nicer.
let them build a mosque on ground zero, and a gay bar next to it , and a pig farm in front of it.
you know, the netherlands has more mosques then churches.
and if a famous person says something about the muslims, he will get killed ( pim fortuyn, theo van gogh , geert wilders ( in time)
' Wrote:let them build a mosque on ground zero, and a gay bar next to it , and a pig farm in front of it.
you know, the netherlands has more mosques then churches.
and if a famous person says something about the muslims, he will get killed ( pim fortuyn, theo van gogh , geert wilders ( in time)
Oh really? because in my city there are 3 churches and zero mosques. And the Christian High School which I am on, serves as a Church too on sunday.
NOTE: I am not a Christian and in fact most at that school aren't, but we go there because they offer bilingual education and the other school doesn't.