' Wrote:Notice that Pennsylvania is not a house space as per the rules - however in game Liberty does indeed control the system. It is considered Liberty space and the Liberty government role plays it as their space.
Nope it's a zoner system. Read the lore. Liberty provides protection for it, but it's not considered Liberty space by the rules or the lore. It feels like a Liberty system, and probably would be one if it were in the original kit, but it's not.
This is the whole problem with using "feels like" to declare governance. It's all just opinion. Like with Edinburgh, there isn't even a Bretonian police station there but people are sure it's Bretonian space because it feels like it ought to be. In turn people do things there because they are sure they are in house space and following the rules only to find out its an old-school BW system and hey that emotional basis just got you sanctioned.
The map should reflect the only thing that matters, and that is the rules. The stuff about opinion is at worst wrong, at best arguable, and mostly just opinion.
' Wrote:Nope it's a zoner system. Read the lore. Liberty provides protection for it, but it's not considered Liberty space by the rules or the lore. It feels like a Liberty system, and probably would be one if it were in the original kit, but it's not.
This is the whole problem with using "feels like" to declare governance. It's all just opinion. Like with Edinburgh, there isn't even a Bretonian police station there but people are sure it's Bretonian space because it feels like it ought to be. In turn people do things there because they are sure they are in house space and following the rules only to find out its an old-school BW system and hey that emotional basis just got you sanctioned.
The map should reflect the only thing that matters, and that is the rules. The stuff about opinion is at worst wrong, at best arguable, and mostly just opinion.
I know the lore. It is indeed not a Zoner system. Liberty was welcomed in to protect the system - they've now for all intents and purposes taken over the place. Much to the dismay of the Zoners there.
This is why there is a Passenger commodity that you can buy there and sell for a good profit at Gran Canaria or Freeport 9.
I'd suggest you do your homework before you tell another person to read the lore. Especially someone who had a hand in the lore regarding that system over the past few years.
Edinburgh isn't Bretonian space because it feels like it ought to be. It was Bretonian space because the lore before 4.86 said it was. Now it is Gallic territory - contested if you will.
You claim the only thing that matters is the rules - I point out that this is a RP Server. If you want a map that specifically tells someone what the rules regarding house space are - you're free to create one. You'll never create a single map that jives with the rules and the lore. The map released by Igiss is one based off the lore he and others wrote (though I bet it doesn't jive with all the in game lore either!).
Said map was made by a developer - who deals in developing the game and its lore. The rule list was made by an admin - who deals in the rules. Hence the reason the developer map doesn't match the rule set.
' Wrote:You claim the only thing that matters is the rules - I point out that this is a RP Server. If you want a map that specifically tells someone what the rules regarding house space are - you're free to create one.
It's what we're doing hoss. The opinion map is in disagreement with the rules, we need one that is actually usable for something more than this is what it ought to be. The disagreement about whether or not Penn is Liberty or Zoner is illustrative of exactly why the rules are the thing that matters--somebody who believes your lore that that it is Liberty and then does or does not do something "in house space" only to find out the rules disagree. Zoner can bring a ship there? Not according to the reference map, but yes according to the rules. We can argue about lore all day, the rules need to be the reference.
' Wrote:It's what we're doing hoss. The opinion map is in disagreement with the rules, we need one that is actually usable for something more than this is what it ought to be. The disagreement about whether or not Penn is Liberty or Zoner is illustrative of exactly why the rules are the thing that matters--somebody who believes your lore that that it is Liberty and then does or does not do something "in house space" only to find out the rules disagree. Zoner can bring a ship there? Not according to the reference map, but yes according to the rules. We can argue about lore all day, the rules need to be the reference.
The current map is not an opinion map. It is the map based off the lore (though probably out of date). If all you care about is the rules then the map is simple.
Take the house space per the rules list and color those systems to match the house they belong to. Liberty = blue, Rheinland = green, Bretonia = ????, Kusari = ????, Gallia = ????. Everything not on the rules list = gray.
If you're going for a map that only takes into account the rules, you should be done. That isn't what you are trying to do - you're trying to create a map that combines the rules and the lore. A map that cannot be created because the lore and the rules do not jive regarding who controls what system.
The bold part of your quote is merely an opinion. The rules are referenced in the rules section. As I said - you're never going to create a single map that works. One for rules, one for lore as defined by the developers, and many created by each faction denoting their perception of the world around them.
As I said - if you're after a map that just references the rules it will have six colors. One color each for Liberty, Gallia, Bretonia, Kusari, Rheinland and one for the rest of the systems. The rules don't define systems any further than House Space and Non House Space. Since you're trying to define them further - it would seem you're injecting your own opinion into the map. Which seems contrary to your claim to only want the rules to be referenced.
' Wrote:So why are you making an interpretation map?
What part of it is interpratation? All it shows is governance and ZOI. The minor classifications for independent vs BW vs EW are not relevant on the map, nor are they relevante to any of the rules.
' Wrote:What part of it is interpratation? All it shows is governance and ZOI. The minor classifications for independent vs BW vs EW are not relevant on the map, nor are they relevante to any of the rules.
You're interpreting what is a BW, an EW, and what certain factions ZoI are. You're interpreting what governance is. For example - you claim Penn is a border world when it is in fact governed by Liberty. ZoI can vary wildly depending on what it is you are doing. For instance - it isn't unheard of for a Rogue in a transport to grab some Cardamine from Alpha. He'd be mauled if he tried to pirate in the Taus though.
You said you want a map that reflects the only reference that matters - the rules. So why are you adding all these other references into it? Doing so contradicts what you've said you wanted out of it.
My point is - you are trying to push this as a rules map while labeling things as indy, bw, ew. Thereby, you're trying to push your interpretation of the systems as the rules; which isn't the case.
' Wrote:For example - you claim Penn is a border world when it is in fact governed by Liberty. ZoI can vary wildly depending on what it is you are doing. For instance - it isn't unheard of for a Rogue in a transport to grab some Cardamine from Alpha. He'd be mauled if he tried to pirate in the Taus though.
The rules say Penn is not Liberty, there's nothing in the rules about BW or EW. It also specifically excludes individual factions (houses are government). You're trying to find something to fault without finding anything. If you find an error let me know. Thanks
I was going to post again, but all of my issues mirror Daedric's, word for word.
If you want a rules map, use the House Systems list as written by Admins as your basis. If you want a lore map... oh, wait, no need. It's already made.
You cannot have a rules-accurate map which includes ZoI, since Zones of Influence (or Interest) are not defined for rules purposes by the Admins.
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