Question regarding docking during PvP(?) and re-engagement.

[Lythrilux]

Here's the scenario. I'm in a transport, say a Junker ID Salvager. I'm smuggling Cardamine back to Manhattan. On my way there, I am ambushed by a Xeno. This Xeno hates me not only because I'm carrying cardamine, but because I'm a Junker. Therefore, he/she begins to enage me to kill me. The Xeno clearly is the more skilled pilot, and I am useless to stopping it's bomber onslaught. So, I make a runner for Rochester base in New York. With the Xeno in hot pursuit, with an inch of my hull left I JUST make it to Rochester and dock. Once docked, I sell my cargo...

Now here's the question:

I just docked a transport, the Salvager is listed as a transport. A while back, I was told that transports are exempt from the PvP death rule if they dock or something similar, so I was wondering:
I have a Junker ID'd Collector docked on Rochester, I undock it from the base...
...Am I allowed to engage the Xeno, since it's a different 'non-combat-orientated' ship class, or do I still have to follow the rule about reengaging and PvP death after docking on a base?

---

[Agmen of Eladesor]

Read the newest iteration of the rules:

3.2 A player who was killed during a PvP fight in any form, must not enter the system where the fight took place or re-engage the attacker(s) for 2 hours from the time of their destruction, or until this ship leaves the game.
3.3 Aggressors are not allowed to destroy a trade vessel prior to issuing a demand, in system or local chat, and allowing sufficient time to respond. "Halt" on its own is not a demand, however, a trade vessel can be destroyed if they refuse to stop after being asked to in the form of a proper demand.
3.4 Fleeing from combat and then docking at a station or planet while you are in range of the ship you were fighting counts as PvP death. Trade vessels are exempt from this rule.

Fighters: Light Fighters, Heavy Fighters, Very Heavy Fighters, Super Heavy Fighters and Bombers
Freighters: Trader ships with cargo holds smaller than 650 units
Transports: Trader ships with cargo holds larger than 650 units, including Liners

The Salvager is a transport - and you could undock with that. The Collector is classed as a Very Heavy Fighter. It's a poor one due to having a large cargo bay, but it's NOT considered a trader vessel.

Thus, you could undock with the Salvager if you chose to do so, and would not be re-engaging under the rules. Undocking with the Collector WOULD be considered re-engaging and a violation of the rules.

---

Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Highland Laddie]

Techically, he didn't FLEE in the Collector...so that should wouldn't be subject to a re-engaging rule, would it?

The Trade vessel he was in and docked in was exempt from PVP death as per 3.4

To me, switching chars and coming out with a combat ship wouldn't necessarily be the same as re-engaging because your first ship was a transport.

[Lumik]

This rule was added because otherwise transports would have lose or lose choice if they encounter enemy and fight begin (they would be destroyed, or dock and considered dead anyway), especially big trains which have just few guns.

It was not added to give player option to dock his transport and then return to fight opponent in better ship for combat. That would be unfair to the other side.

---

---

---

<> Information <> Recruitment <> Wanderlust Magazine <>

[Highland Laddie]

Unfair how? If the transport was able to dock...then the pirate/combat ship failed to prevent the transport from docking (that is called a WIN for the transport). Why is it then unfair if the transport pilot wants to turn around and try to clear the area of enemies by switching to an escort or combat ship, especially if no other help is available? Since when do we punish transport pilots for winning an engagement?

Otherwise, that just is create incentive for Transport pilots to NOT try to flee and just comply with the attacker's demands.

[Murcielago]

Unfair how? If the transport was able to dock...then the pirate/combat ship failed to prevent the transport from docking (that is called a WIN for the transport). Why is it then unfair if the transport pilot wants to turn around and try to clear the area of enemies by switching to an escort or combat ship, especially if no other help is available? Since when do we punish transport pilots for winning an engagement?

Otherwise, that just is create incentive for Transport pilots to NOT try to flee and just comply with the attacker's demands.

This should not be allowed.

[Lythrilux]

Would be great if a green guy could come and clear this up.

---

[Agmen of Eladesor]

You're looking at effectively the same re-engagement sanction mess that you'd get if you docked because you were being pirated, and came out in a Navy Destroyer.

Parse the rules again - you're missing something VERY important.

Trade vessels are exempt from this rule.
A player who was killed during a PvP fight in any form,

See those two slight, but very important differences? Your trade vessel is exempt. You as the player are NOT exempt.

Now, if you were to dock your Salvager, and then undock on a Shire - those are BOTH trade vessels and there wouldn't be an issue. (Well, there'd still be issues, but in this case, you really haven't violated any rules because those are both trading vessels.) But you're switching AS A PLAYER from a trade vessel to a combat vessel - even if it's a crappy combat vessel, it's still considered a fighter. And thus, you've effectively considered your ship that docked to be killed in a PvP fight.

In other words, while this is an interesting attempt to find a loophole within the rules, it's not an acceptable one and would be a sanctionable offense. (IMO as a former admin.)

---

Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Highland Laddie]

Kudos to you as former admin, Agmen, but I don't see a direct correlation between transport docking and PvP death. In a combat craft vs. Transport, the transport making it to a base and docking isn't considered "losing" the engagement. So, if a guy flying a VHF kills another ship (i.e. wins an engagement), then goes and docks his VHF to fly.something else, this is considered PvP death? How is it any different for a transport who wins his engagement?

Examine this situation:

I'm a transport confronted by a hostile player ship. If I don't comply, I'll most likely be dead via PvP. If I manage to successfully flee to a friendly base....I'm alive, but am now at the mercies of however long the hostile ship chooses to camp outside the base. My only options are:
1. Wait.....for however long it takes someone else.to clear the hostile, or for him to leave or log off.
2. Log onto a different ship (which, if you are correct, counts as PvP death and I basically have the same options as the previous.

Is there another option I'm missing? Because, as it seems to me, unless I have some amazing cargo worth saving, but I'm too stingy to pay a pirate, there is no real viable option besides complying with the demand or dying. That seems to skew.things heavily in the pirate's favor.

However,.switching from a transport to a combat ship is still no guarantee of a win either, but it certainly narrows the odds, if not evens.

[Karst]

I don't see how the rule can be interpreted the way you're describing, Agmen.

It clearly states that docking in combat as a trade vessel does not count as a pvp death, because trade vessels are exempt from the "docking counts as a pvp death" rule.
And if pvp death did not occur, why shouldn't I be able to bring another ship to the engagement?

(aside from possibly violating the metagaming rule, depending on what I bring)

---