Removing/altering the ZOI restrictions on Hogosha/Junkers

[Nightingale]

Well, pretty much what the title says. The discussion over here: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=112189

got me thinking about the ID restrictions again. As far as I can tell, the reason they were implemented in the first place is pretty much gone by now, at least regarding the Hogosha. Personally, I think that both ID's could do with, if not a complete removal of the restrictions, then at least a bit of a change.

The Hogosha ID is the main reason why I make this post. While the restriction was made for a good reason, it's redundant when the server is on such a low population, and that trade route isn't nearly as popular anymore. My suggestion is as follows: changing the line

- Can demand cargo and credits from ship outside of Kusari space, and attack them if they do not comply. Ships belonging to Samura are exempted from this.

into

- Can demand cargo and credits from ships in systems where Hogosha or Samura have a base, and attack them if they do not comply. Can demand cargo and credits outside House Space. Ships belonging to Samura are exempted from this.

It could potentially do with removing the cargo piracy line as well, though I find that overly restrictive. The original ZOI would still apply as well, so they'd have to stay in Kusari to make their illicit credits.

The Junker ID is harder to balance, though, since it has a much larger ZOI. It's more or less the same as the Hogosha ID, however, so I figured I should throw it in since someone might have an idea. I advocate distance-based piracy restrictions, so I'd suggest that:

- Can demand cargo and credits from ships outside of Rheinland, Liberty and Bretonian house space, and attack them if they do not comply.

would be changed into:

- Can demand cargo and credits from ships within 15 kilometers of a Junker base. Can demand cargo and credits outside of Rheinland, Liberty and Bretonian House Space, and attack them if they do not comply. Can demand Scrap Metal and Premium Scrap anywhere.

It fits with the Junker lore, it's not overly restrictive and ships that close to Junker bases should be a bit wary, in my opinion. If nothing else, it'd keep the house traders away from where they have no reason to go in the first place.

Just a thought I had, feel free to severely deconstruct my ramblings. Both are interesting, well-developed factions, and it's a shame to see them in their current state, considering what they used to be.

(Oh, and make Junkers hostile to ALG as well. Why they are even allowed to dock on Junker bases and mine their fields in the first place is beyond me. It's especially weird in Texas.)

EDIT: Updated the main post to match suggestions from Lythrilux, and to clear up the wording slightly.

[Highland Laddie]

So you want to put MORE restrictions on both Hogosha and Junkers? Why exactly?

The only thing I read in any of this that makes sense is:

(Oh, and make Junkers hostile to ALG as well. Why they are even allowed to dock on Junker bases and mine their fields in the first place is beyond me. It's especially weird in Texas.)

That's a definite yes. Or at least rep them to unfriendly/no dock.

[Lythrilux]

Well, pretty much what the title says. The discussion over here: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=112189

got me thinking about the ID restrictions again. As far as I can tell, the reason they were implemented in the first place is pretty much gone by now, at least regarding the Hogosha. Personally, I think that both ID's could do with, if not a complete removal of the restrictions, then at least a bit of a change.

The Hogosha ID is the main reason why I make this post. While the restriction was made for a good reason, it's redundant when the server is on such a low population, and that trade route isn't nearly as popular anymore. My suggestion is as follows: changing the line

- Can demand cargo and credits from ship outside of Kusari space, and attack them if they do not comply. Ships belonging to Samura are exempted from this.

into

- Can demand cargo and credits from ships in systems where Hogosha or Samura have a base, and attack them if they do not comply. Ships belonging to Samura are exempted from this.

It could potentially do with removing the cargo piracy line as well, though I find that overly restrictive. The original ZOI would still apply as well, so they'd have to stay in Kusari to make their illicit credits.

Going with the suggestion, but still let them pirate in systems that aren't house space. So something like this:

- Can demand cargo and credits from ships in systems where Hogosha or Samura have a base, and attack them if they do not comply. Ships belonging to Samura are exempted from this.
Can demand cargo and credits in systems outside of house space.

The Junker ID is harder to balance, though, since it has a much larger ZOI...

- Can demand cargo and credits from ships within 15 kilometers of a Junker base or outside House Space/in Kusari, and attack them if they do not comply. Can demand Scrap Metal and Premium Scrap anywhere.

Not sure if it's your writing, but that still sounds pretty vague. I'd look at something like this:

- Can demand cargo and credits from ships within 15 kilometers of a Junker base, Can demand cargo and credits outside of Rheinland, Liberty and Bretonia and attack them if they do not comply. Can demand Scrap Metal and Premium Scrap anywhere.

I'd say that'd be much more fitting. I've never seen why Junkers can't demand scrap from non-Junkers.

(Oh, and make Junkers hostile to ALG as well. Why they are even allowed to dock on Junker bases and mine their fields in the first place is beyond me. It's especially weird in Texas.)

The reasoning is that the Junkers became friendly with ALG during the Sigma clean up operation, however, I do agree that it doesn't make sense why they're still friendly. Considering Yanagi went kaput and the ALG are just leeching off Junker bases and local scrap fields without offering Junkers anything back.

---

[Ponge]

(Oh, and make Junkers hostile to ALG as well. Why they are even allowed to dock on Junker bases and mine their fields in the first place is beyond me. It's especially weird in Texas.)

The reasoning is that the Junkers became friendly with ALG during the Sigma clean up operation, however, I do agree that it doesn't make sense why they're still friendly. Considering Yanagi went kaput and the ALG are just leeching off Junker bases and local scrap fields without offering Junkers anything back.

I do not see any RP justification to make them hostile to each other. "Junkers became friendly with ALG during the Sigma clean up operation", and despite it is gone, there will be a new one in Munich. Besides this, no inRP event happened and no hostilities were made that would justify this move.

---

[Nightingale]

Yeah, I forgot to re-add the line to the Hogosha ID about pirating outside House Space. As for the Junker ID, it's currently unable to pirate anywhere within House Space, and my addition makes it possible to do so in a limited, balanced fashion without making them a pirate faction like the Rogues. 15k is just a suggested number, though any higher and they can do trade-lane piracy, which I find makes no sense if they wanna stay on the neutral side with the lawfuls.

I do not see any RP justification to make them hostile to each other. "Junkers became friendly with ALG during the Sigma clean up operation", and despite it is gone, there will be a new one in Munich. Besides this, no inRP event happened and no hostilities were made that would justify this move.

I don't see any RP justification for ALG ships to dock on any Junker base whatsoever. Especially in the scrap fields. One isolated event in a Border World system doesn't mean a Sirius-wide alliance with unlimited access, especially not when it hurts business.

[Lythrilux]

Yeah, I forgot to re-add the line to the Hogosha ID about pirating outside House Space. As for the Junker ID, it's currently unable to pirate anywhere within House Space, and my addition makes it possible to do so in a limited, balanced fashion without making them a pirate faction like the Rogues. 15k is just a suggested number, though any higher and they can do trade-lane piracy, which I find makes no sense if they wanna stay on the neutral side with the lawfuls.

I do not see any RP justification to make them hostile to each other. "Junkers became friendly with ALG during the Sigma clean up operation", and despite it is gone, there will be a new one in Munich. Besides this, no inRP event happened and no hostilities were made that would justify this move.

I don't see any RP justification for ALG ships to dock on any Junker base whatsoever. Especially in the scrap fields. One isolated event in a Border World system doesn't mean a Sirius-wide alliance with unlimited access, especially not when it hurts business.

Following up from that, ALG don't seem to mind shooting Junkers elsewhere themselves.

---

[Ponge]

I do not see any RP justification to make them hostile to each other. "Junkers became friendly with ALG during the Sigma clean up operation", and despite it is gone, there will be a new one in Munich. Besides this, no inRP event happened and no hostilities were made that would justify this move.

I don't see any RP justification for ALG ships to dock on any Junker base whatsoever. Especially in the scrap fields. One isolated event in a Border World system doesn't mean a Sirius-wide alliance with unlimited access, especially not when it hurts business.

Well, if the Junkers would have any problem with ALG mining in the Texas fields and selling the scrap on Junker bases, I think they already would have made an objection on this, don't you think? I'm in Congress, and this branch of Junkers don't have any problem with this situation (so far). I cannot speak for the others though.

Following up from that, ALG don't seem to mind shooting Junkers elsewhere themselves.

Do they shoot first, or they defend themselves when Junkers try to pirate them (JM attacking IMG-ALG convoys or ore haulers in the Taus)?

---

[Nightingale]

To be honest, my main objection to ALG docking on Junker bases has to do with Texas. Have you actually seen when the ALG convoys of two or more massive Movers thunder up to Beaumont to do their trading? It's not only immersion-breaking, it's downright ridiculous, especially since Beaumont clearly lacks the facilities to handle ships of that size. It also makes no sense within the roleplay of the factions, whatsoever. As for the Congress, I can say nothing. Never been a part of them, and therefore I can't say what they think.

[Lythrilux]

Do they shoot first, or they defend themselves when Junkers try to pirate them (JM attacking IMG-ALG convoys or ore haulers in the Taus)?

It's not so straightforward, it's like this:
>IMG see's then shoots at JM
>ALG assists IMG in shooting JM
Or
>JM pirates an IMG
>ALG come to assist the IMG

It's never been where we directly attack ALG ourselves. We generally make it known beforehand that we don't have any issues with ALG. Even in convoys, we'd not target the ALG ships.
ALG's diplomacy with IMG is stronger than their diplomacy with Junkers, hence why they shoot JM over sitting out.

---

[Ponge]

clearly lacks the facilities to handle ships of that size. It also makes no sense within the roleplay of the factions, whatsoever.

I think ship size cannot be presented as a reason here. I saw battleships docking on the outpost size bases (the small border stations), and inRP these ships do not dock into the base, just moore to it. It is plain game mechanic limitation (like caps "docking" with planets).

On the roleplay part, could you elaborate that a bit? I still don't get what your problem is.

Lythrilux: the Marauders and the Congress are basically different in goals and activities, hence it makes sense their relations to other factions differ. You pirate their business partners? Why wouldn't they shoot you then? If JM anf ALG acts hostile to each other, that does not mean all Junkers are hostile to them.

---