For the purposes of this thread I'm going to call players who are part of an
official faction - as official players. Those of us who are part of the NPC faction
but have not joined up to the official player faction - more commonly refered to
as independents - i will call unofficial players.
Can we please hear from the Admins regarding these simple questions.
Q.1: Do you consider there to be one LN? Do you consider there to be one LSF?
Q.1b: Do you consider the "official' player faction as the authority in the systems that they have an interest or are said to own that system from the infocards?
Q.2: Do the unofficial players of the LSF and or the LN have to obey any orders given to them by official players?
Q.3: What are the benefits of obeying those orders?
Q.4: What are the consequences of not obeying orders?
Q.4b: Are there benefits to not obeying those orders?
Q.5: Is there a place for official players to obey unofficial players orders?
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
This something that will need to be discussed by the admins in some detail, I think. We'll probably post a proper response once we've had time to discuss it amongst the rest of the team, since any official response will undoubtedly had quite widespread consequences for RP.
' Wrote:This something that will need to be discussed by the admins in some detail, I think. We'll probably post a proper response once we've had time to discuss it amongst the rest of the team, since any official response will undoubtedly had quite widespread consequences for RP.
Ah yes... that's an understatement - Admin endorsing of "official" factions in this way would be the nail in the coffin for independent players. And all those questions are tough ones....
' Wrote:Ah yes... that's an understatement - Admin endorsing of "official" factions in this way would be the nail in the coffin for independent players. And all those questions are tough ones....
From what I've seen, they already do endorse official factions in this way. If they didn't, RM, KNF, LN, and LSF wouldn't exist in their current forms as representing then entirety of an NPC faction, but would be something closer to the QCRF, representing a particular branch or fleet among the larger faction. The latter, I think, is much better than the former, as it does leave freedom for independent characters without them having to come up with strange RP reasons for why they exist yet don't work for the player faction which represents, supposedly, the entirety of that NPC faction on the server.
As it stands, the rules of Discovery support the creation of independent lawfuls, and the rules support the 'rights' of independent lawfuls. However, in practice the lawful player factions seem to have complete control over 'their' space, not only for such things like determining what is/is not contraband and enforcing the 'obvious' laws (pirating players or NPCs, hauling cardamine, etc.), but also for banning entire IDs from 'their' space, ordering around independent members of the local lawful factions (and everyone else), and generally enforce whatever 'laws' they like in whatever way they like. At the moment, it is quite obvious that the Admins support this, so their answers to Hyung's questions are likely going to be just as obvious.
So, yes, the role of independent characters seems to be dying, with the exception of Zoners, Junkers, and BHG... And who knows if that'll last?
If a group of 10 independant players banded together and set down some rules for a system, they would have to be obeyed just the same as any faction would.
If you don't, they would simply hunt you down, as the factions do.
The only difference between a faction and a group of players banded together is a name. (And some RP connections etc)
To be honest I think this ought to be left as a grey area. Defining it one way or another will just harm independants or faction people.
' Wrote:If a group of 10 independant players banded together and set down some rules for a system, they would have to be obeyed just the same as any faction would.
If you don't, they would simply hunt you down, as the factions do.
Actually, they'd likely end up sanctioned and with a group-wide Admin warning to cease and desist.
Hmm this is a touchy subject. I guess it would come down to rank. Since you are role playing a member of the military if you are given an order by an officer of higher rank then you would follow your orders. I would say that maybe an indipendant could not be ranked above a certain level to prevent a player from creating say an Admiral and ordering the official factions around. But as i said if you are RP'ing a member of the military then you would be sworn to follow orders.
I tend to be a strong independent player, but being a part of a faction is very fun as well.
Ask any faction pilot who has seen my independents, they obey the rules and the local laws and attempt to promote RP. I have always respected factions for being able to stick together and RP together, independents cannot really deny or break that unless a miracle happens.
When it comes to independent LSF/LN and official faction LSF/LN, I personally would say if the independents do not obey, they will be branded and exiled. The Liberty lawfuls do not want any chance of an unknown usurping their command or power. I would say this echoes in every part of lawful factions. I even saw it in Rheinland the other day when an independent bought a Rheinland cruiser and had Military tag. Sure he must have benn sort of new, and like the Rheinland Military, but RM what I call 'RP bullied' him into surrendering the Cruiser.
This kind of act I despise, factions are destroying some of the work normal people have spent hours even days saving up for a large vessel. Yes Ok, I know you need a good RP behind large capital ships, and yes the local factions make the rules. But answer me this. Who died and made you king? This I do not understand. It must have been first come first served back in the day.
No I do not hate or despise factions, but pushing independents out of capitals by RP force is kind of harsh. Incorporate them INTO your RP or fleet. Look at Gafwmn in Liberty, he does a heck of a job in my books. Yes, I do know that there are certain people who join the server make lots of money and buy a capital to increase their e-penis size or for the lulz, but banning independents from flying some things is a bit harsh. Let them RP, this is an RP server. *phew*
The benefits of obeying the factions is your own safety, not to mention you may be included into some events. I had lots of fun in Order events in my Trent character, ah that raid in Liberty was fun. Get a good back story for an event that makes sense and let the fireworks roll.
The downside to not obeying as i said before is exile. The 522nd are one of the latest examples of what happens when you get on the bad side of a lawful faction.
An official player obeying an independent? I have never ever seen that happen. In my experience some faction players treat independents like children. No respect, but in some cases they do treat them as equals, but they never obey them. This is from my experience anyway. I could have missed something.
That's my unusually long thoughts on the matter between Factionised and non-factionised players.
As Hyung Soong's question was directed to the admins, I didn't post here before, but PMed him my impressions. I think, though, that I can add one perspective over this issue. I'm quoting here what I wrote to him:
Quote:Hey, man, I'm not an admin, but I'd like to give you my impressions over the matters you have pointed out.
Q.1: Do you consider there to be one LN? Do you consider there to be one LSF?
Yes, specially in the case of the military factions. It's impractical, in terms of reason, to understand these institutions any other way. Military organizations are monolithic and hierarchical.
Q.1b: Do you consider the "official' player faction as the authority in the systems that they have an interest or are said to own that system from the infocards?
First, you have to consider that the military NPC factions do represent the sovereign power of the nation they represent. Second, the official factions have subjected themselves to the scrutiny of the rest of the community and have acquired the status of official after being deemed acceptable in its role and procedures by it. It not a stretch, but reasonable part of their role play that these factions hold authority over the systems they have an interest in.
Quote:A military is an organization authorized by its nation to use force, usually including use of weapons, in defending its country by combating actual or perceived threats.
Q.2: Do the unofficial players of the LSF and or the LN have to obey any orders given to them by official players?
Being the monolithic aspect of the military organizations, considering that independent characters belong to any other RP entity that it's not the exact same one that the player faction characters do is shattering the RP for that entity. As such, if a player is properly tagged and IDed after a military faction, that player belongs to the same organization as the official players do. The real problem is where to put that player inside the chain of command. Considering the organized and dedicated aspect of the official factions and the commitment they have assumed over that role with the community, it is of good tone, from independent players, to fit in inside the structure of that official organization. Any other position than the lowest rank would be a circumvention of that organization's structure, so that will be the role that independent characters will be likely assigned by the faction. And that, in its turn, implicates in them obeying orders from the player faction group. In turn, given the fact that the player doesn't really belong to their organization, the player faction characters (in fact players) should tone down their virtual position of power over those independent characters to try and not "force" them into situations they are not prepared or not willing to participate in (ex: PvP).
The dynamics should be one of inclusion, cooperation and mutual respect. It's possible for independent characters to work with the player faction, rather than clash directly against it.
Q.3: What are the benefits of obeying those orders?
It helps create the suspension of disbelief environment to everyone involved. As I've said before, military organizations are hierarchical and monolithic. If you have two, three, seven characters, each playing their version of a military, that RP entity crumbles down and it's detrimental for everyone involved. Players join military factions because they want to play the structure, the chain of command and the organization. Rogue characters (the ones not only unwilling to operate alongside the structure outlined by the factions, but that clash against it) are hurting that for everyone inside the player faction and "passersby".
Q.4: What are the consequences of not obeying orders?
Disruption of the suspension of disbelief for everyone involved. How can a military person not take orders? Why would anyone join a military force if they can't take orders?
Q.4b: Are there benefits to not obeying those orders?
I can't see any.
Q.5: Is there a place for official players to obey unofficial players orders?
The official player factions benefit from the fact that there are a number of players creating their structure and procedures. The official factions' players each contribute to their factions, so the actions of the characters in game aren't made up by one person, but are the consequences of the reasoning between a number of players that are dedicated to that RP entity. As such, it's more reasonable for official faction players to dictate the proceedings than the other way around. It's the work, impressions and reasoning of a number of people against the whims of a single person. That doesn't mean that an independent can't contribute to a official faction's reasoning, but that's something that belongs to the metagaming realm. If an independent wishes to contribute to the faction, the last thing he'll do is try and break its structure down in game.
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