(01-22-2018, 02:56 AM)dgillis91 Wrote: (1) Do we know how big of an issue this has been historically? If it is the case that the admins would have to penalize people for it all the time, potentially that could cause more work for the admins than just making the updates.
The only time it's been raised as an issue was with the initial closing of the thread because of GMG. What they did, and what detrimental impact it caused if any, is unknown to me at least. I didn't notice anything bad come from it, but that may just be me. If they broke the rules, a sanction for them alone would have sufficed.
(01-22-2018, 02:56 AM)dgillis91 Wrote: (2) Elaborating on (1), it’s possible that not requiring something to go through the current formal process could lead to policy decay, or substantial rework.
What we had before was pretty much fine and worked nicely. Laws were kept updated. But if it's absolutely necessary then we should have a compromise, because right now the current system is garbage for everyone. We all lose.
(01-22-2018, 02:56 AM)dgillis91 Wrote: (3) How much needs to be changed in the Sirius laws? Are those things really something that should be left up to individuals? This could be an issue. For example, Liberty has multiple factions that could potentially regulate the laws. Should those faction be allowed to individually modify those, potentially without consensus? (Think checks and balances)
Now, I don’t know how the forum security works. Is there potentially a way to open that thread up to a larger pool of people, without entirely opening the floodgates? That is, give access to a few more people. Then we could look at some formal change control process which ensures compliance, and common support for changes, as well as, versioning.
From what I've heard I think a lot of things across the board are outdated right now. But FYI when it comes to Houses, the laws are all discussed and implemented between the official factions within that House (Governments, basically). So Lib Gov consists of LPI, Ageira, USI, LN and LSF for example (the Liberty official factions). Smaller factions, such as IMG|, regulate their own laws for their own, smaller, regions of space (which tend to be more contested between multiple regional actors).
As explained, we don't really need to change the current level of access we have now, just the process which through it is done.
(01-22-2018, 07:03 AM)sindroms Wrote: Since the laws of sirirus is more than just a post in an RP section but has direct consequences on a faction's ID (which mind you is the reason why the lock happened in the first place), the following changes need to occur.
The line ''levy fines'' in the appropirate IDs needs to be changed to ''may enforce laws as described in the Laws of Sirius''.
The Core ID has something like this. I think it's a model all Lawful/House IDs (that enforce laws) should follow.
(01-22-2018, 07:25 AM)Durandal Wrote: If any faction can edit their laws at any time, without notice, that will always be an issue. As per your suggestion there is nothing stopping the Core from editing their laws to say they can engage ships normally allied to them and editing it back. There is nothing to stop the CR from editing their laws to extend to their reach and then editing them back. I could drop a million other examples, but I think you get the gist.
But none of those examples (at least) can arise from editing the laws. They're all tied into the ID. For example, The Core ID doesn't actually have anything on its own that bars them from shooting allies per se, and in fact, what they will and won't shoot is defined by their diplomacy which rests on the faction page. CR can't extend their reach because ultimately they're locked into their ZoI. There may be other examples out there, but I feel like in the vast majority of cases the ID system serves as a good safeguard to prevent abuse and keep things sensible.
Re: Standardisation...
I think this is a good idea. My only real complaint is it would take out the uniqueness of each laws post, but on the other hand, I do agree it can be a bit difficult for newbies. Furthermore, I strongly think laws need some form of in-game representation as well, such as an automated server-wide message informing them to look at the Laws thread. But that's another topic.
I would propose then that all relevant leaders come together and construct a standardised template for their respective laws to be contained in - provided they all agree. If this is a compulsory term for unlocking the thread, then I'm sure people would take part rather than perhaps risk their post being deleted. I'd also combine this with a changelog. I would gladly organise the movement on overhauling that thread.
I absolutely support the idea of standardizing laws. For example: Cloaking devices. Liberty allows their full use, yet Bretonia and Rhienland require prior registration, while Kusari and Gallia ban all use of cloaks. Why? What purpose does this serve? If someone is flying as an unlawful faction in Kusari or Gallia, they're not going to acknowledge the laws and they'll simply use a cloak if they want to, anyways. This places civilians at a grave disadvantage in that, for obeying the law, they are indirectly punished for it via being unable to flee the ones who disobey the law. If pirates are can cloak, why can't civilians?
To addendum this: Perhaps Police IDs can have a built-in 1k-range Cloak Disruptor that they can use, so that if any civilians attempt to use their cloak during a traffic stop, they can foil the attempt. Or, if not built in, have it be sold on Police stations and show in bold on the piece of equipment that "ONLY POLICE IDs MAY USE THIS," then tech nerf anyone else trying to use it to 1% like with nomad equipment on human IDs. This way, it's a perk to encourage Police ID over Military when wanting to intercept people, plus you still have to sacrifice the CM slot to use the Disruptor.
(01-22-2018, 02:15 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Furthermore, I strongly think laws need some form of in-game representation as well, such as an automated server-wide message informing them to look at the Laws thread
Actually, I'm helping with a project like this, though it's not simply a server-wide message. I won't spoil much, but it ought to help players both old and new tremendously.
Short of making an entire template for proof of concept, I've got a rough idea of what a universal template for the laws (in terms of sections, structure and flow) should be:
1. Description of Organisation/House
2. Friendly Groups and Callsign of Organisation/House w/ Reason
3. Hostile Groups and Callsign of Organisation/House w/ Reason
4. Major Crimes (Piracy, Assault etc)
5. Minor Crimes (Misc RP-Based Stuff)
6. Contraband Laws (Smuggling, Embargoes)
7. Technology Laws (Illegal Equipment, Ships, Technology and Exceptions to Those Three)
8. Restricted Systems and Areas
9. POB Laws
10. Notes/Other
Using some of our more modern bbcode features, players would be able to quickly jump to certain sections within that Laws post.
I'd also propose that the general law index could specifically state which ID(s) enforce certain linked laws.
(01-24-2018, 05:31 PM)Sand_Spider Wrote: I absolutely support the idea of standardizing laws. For example: Cloaking devices. Liberty allows their full use, yet Bretonia and Rhienland require prior registration, while Kusari and Gallia ban all use of cloaks. Why? What purpose does this serve? If someone is flying as an unlawful faction in Kusari or Gallia, they're not going to acknowledge the laws and they'll simply use a cloak if they want to, anyways. This places civilians at a grave disadvantage in that, for obeying the law, they are indirectly punished for it via being unable to flee the ones who disobey the law. If pirates are can cloak, why can't civilians?
Irl, my goverment not allow me use handguns,also i have many restrictions for use hunting guns. And,obviously, criminals can use it freely until they dont be captured or killed. And even if i kill criminal in self-defence, i have many chances to go in prison.
Governments not always fair to sitizens, its can be tyranic or just weak in their law-enforcement. Laws not always logical, rational, comfortable. It can be yet another tyran's whim,or represent a local traditions. Also, bad sides of goverment laws represented by existing of local political criminals. For example, if gallic government be not so tyranic, what a sense in councils faction?
But, that really have weird thing,when in rp faction strong, but it have not any ingame represent and just cannot attempt law-enforcement, but it for another thread.
I think they mean a standardization in a laws page template. It's really blown my eyes when i readed that, and searching in all treaties and licensure pages not add usability for it. I agree with it, laws need a template with easy navigation in it, and cross-links when that need additionaly laws.