I don't think crappy dev decisions just to "progress with the story finally and as fast as possible" is a good means to the end. Discovery is thriving from the present tense, not from the future. The latest decisions are pissing off more and more people, and chances are nobody is looking forward to the end of the war if it is based on bullcrap. I see you pointing and taking the blame, but so far it doesn't really look like there is the spirit of changing things to be more community-friendly. Instead, I frequently hear you say in voice chat or write sentences that begin with "Unpopular opinion: blablabla" in a position where the reputation of the dev team, especially the story devs, couldn't be worse. And that doesn't even include my personal disappointment for the devs I currently have for each of them individually.
I really think you need to sort out your priorities. Just because Kaze is constantly complaining about how long the Bretonia-Gallia-war has been lasting doesn't mean it needs to be stupidly rushed now. We live in the present.
(03-26-2019, 11:16 AM)Durandal Wrote: I posted this in the regional story Discord (the one which we use to communicate with OFLs on the regular) last night, but it doesn't lose any relevance here.
Quote:9:57 PM] Durandal: Dumping an announcement here to say that I'm very aware that communication with the story team has been spotty and that not everyone is doing their best job of documenting planned changes right now. I largely fault myself for this for having stepped back from this chat. If people could @mention Durandal in any of the regional chats here for things which have been neglected, etc, I would greatly appreciate it.
In addition, we are working on a Roleplay Canonization Request system. "Player driven" is a buzzword being thrown around a lot lately, and while we do wish for players to have an impact upon the storyline, a trend which started with Teerin, no hard and fast rules were ever set about what that level of impact actually is, or what the best way to achieve it is. We cannot simply canonize roleplay which has been done without regard for planned story elements, meaning when someone writes or does a thing, presents it to us, and says "put it in the game", we look like dickheads for saying no. We aren't trying to be dismissive or ignorant, but to make this work we need to have a proper infrastructure in place for documenting and integrating your own narratives into ours.
Sometimes we will not be able to, but many times we will. I also want to point out that anything you submit is and always was subject to change. Just because you say your faction is going to do a certain thing, that doesn't mean it's always going to happen, or happen in the way you intend. This can be for gameplay reasons (such as the Ageira gate site in Honshu), for narrative reasons, (such as the IMG not being allowed to self destruct Aland), et cetera. It does not mean we are being willfully ignorant or inconsiderate of your wants and needs.
[10:00 PM] Durandal: It takes a lot of effort to keep track of all the changes that happen here, and manpower has always been at a premium. Despite this, it isn't always as simple as hiring more people and throwing them at an issue. Please make an effort to be patient with us, and communicate in a civil manner with us. We do reserve the right, as the development team, to change things, and the story is never going to be 100% player driven. But if you make an effort to work with us and we all make an effort to communicate with each other like adults, then WE will be able to better assist you in having a more profound impact upon Discovery's various plotlines, or canonizing your own.
Another topic I wish to raise is Gallia. The war must end, and will end, with a decisive victor (I swear to god that doesn't mean Bretonia wins). To get to that point, unraveling ten years of ancient history our predecessors have left for us with absurd concepts such as Gallia not having ZoI outside the Taus for the entirety of 4.85, or Teerin's starvation doctrine, certain things must be rushed and forced, perhaps moreso to an extent than we would like at times. I think there is an opportunity for a much more dynamic roleplay environment and for us to better consider player input upon the conclusion of the war. I acknowledge that things are bad right now, and I expect them to get worse before all is said and done. But I still need to urge everyone to try to be their best selves, and allow cooler heads to prevail. There is a light at the end of the tunnel here.
[10:03 PM] Durandal: Once again, regarding the concept of a more player driven story, I implore you all to turn your attention towards the Sigmas. I made a post the other night in which I explained that the war between Kusari and Rheinland was open ended, and that we had actually been hoping to see a greater level of player impact there. As I mentioned previously, developments around Bretonia and Gallia are probably going to feel pretty artificial until things are resolved. If you want to really try your hand at changing things, the Sigmas, Kusari, and to a lesser extent the Omicrons and Rheinland, are the place to be.
[10:07 PM] Durandal: I suppose that's pretty much all I have to say right now. There's more, but I don't want to drag this out or seem like I'm beating a dead horse. All I can really do is call for solidarity, and leave a bit of a reminder. We're all supposed to be in this together, as characters in a game world. Discovery was never meant to be chess, and it isn't about one upping each other. It's about existing in that universe and playing things out. Instead of reacting with outrage to a change and asking "why?", or refuting it, perhaps come at it from the perspective of a character, and you'll find yourselves in a less hateful and more intriguing world. Let's be our best selves, think before we speak, and let cooler heads prevail. That goes for all of us here, gold or any other color under the Sirian rainbow.
Regarding the twitch/podcast thing. I jumped the gun about that because it needs to be done, and in doing so I didn't consult any other developers first meaning it isn't going to happen immediately/not everyone was on the same page. I'd like to get at least three of the dept heads sat down together on voice to address the issues we're facing right now, but you may have to settle for just me and @Unseelie. I think it's likely to happen sometime next weekend.
The asking why is due to the lack of communication from the devs towards player base
I'm glad you acknowledge there's a problem regarding it and probably much of the refuting or the asking why will disappear with this problem solved.
I'm sure everyone understands that story can't be 100% player driven, it wouldn't make any sense, besides it wouldn't work, but compromises can be reached if people talk and exlpain the reasons why.
I can give an example of how things don't work
The Belfast thingy was poorly handled from both sides
First form Dev side as they said Belfast is gonna be lost to Galics, conquered by Embrun, no reasoning no nothing, just this will happen because we want to (to this day i still don't know the story reason of this)
From my side was poorly handled because i could been more calm addressing the thing and explain my point of view in a better way but i admit i ravaged as the dev team ignored player RP around Belfast tha could have been solved with a simple beter communication.
I can't even imagine how did bret guys felt when they received the information of the loss of southhampton, or Leeds for that matter.
Another thing, the rheinland kusari war that nobody cares about, there is no information on why this is still happening
This is pure lack of communication and transparency that can be avoided.
You say to enter the prespective of a character, that was what mollys done with Belfast and again here i prolly failed in expressing my point of view, inside mollys way of living the only possible outcome would be the destruction of Belfast, which happened after with the retcon, that could have been avoided if there was communication.
I'm not going to write a massive wall of text here, but I want to address some of this:
I think there's a dangerous disconnect between what I assume are the narrative intentions of the story team's development, and the way it's perceived by the player base.
You're creating a narrative in which Bretonia, once the plucky underdogs, are considered by large portions of the playerbase to be primary antagonist of the storyline, both inrply and oorply.
I'm certain this isn't your intention, and I fear you're not even fully aware that you're doing it, or worse, don't care.
We're at a point where many players are assuming Bretonia is destined to make some sort of miraculous comeback, which at one point may have been appreciated, but now for numerous reasons is leaving a sour taste in many mouths: The massive Bretonian playerbase, which dwarfs Gallias and even exceeds Liberty's, at least in terms of lawfuls, the painfully obvious developer involvement in their success, the fact that it's coming at great expense to other, previously uninvolved factions/players. This has had a very detrimental effect on both the motivations of opposing factions, as well as a largely innocent Bretonian playerbase finding themselves the target of largely undeserved hatred.
At this time my motivation to do RP as an enemy of Bretonia is pretty low, because I don't have confidence that anything the other side does will have any noticeable effect on what appears to be a completely predetermined process of miraculous Bretonian victory.
Of course there's always going to be storyline changes that can be affected by players and others that can't, but Doc Holliday was absolutely right with his post: There needs to be some level of balance to motivate players in opposition to the main dev pet faction of the day, currently Bretonia, to actually bother to RP.
It doesn't help that we are forced to rely completely on speculation about what developments are set in stone and which aren't until after the actual patches hit; discussions in the so-called house story developer chats have given no information whatsoever on planned developments.
Some of this may be a relic of the very initial Discovery storyline which focused on the Gallic invasion, something it seems you intend to conclude now with some degree of Bretonian reconquest, but you can't tell me there is no way to make this worthwhile for Bretonia's (few) opponents.
The absurd Rheinland government powergaming was just the icing on the cake, a blatant and obvious oorp attempt to punish ALG for their involvement, for getting into sacred Bretonia's way.
If you expect players to enjoy the game even if they're opposed to the Bretonian side, please make an effort to communicate with them and give them concepts to work with, instead of just stomping every attempt to resist your unstoppable Devtonian choo choo train. It's not healthy for opposing players, it's not healthy for Bretonian players that find themselves unjustly hated, and it most certainly isn't healthy for the relationship between players and devs.
Yeah, something I noticed is a huge disconnect. We don't need fast constant and railroaded updates. Let the community work with the Dev team to curate quality updates. Sure, things may come slower, but you can't rush quality.
Never change a running system. We had well established conflicts with cap battles attracting over ~150 people on a regular basis. The good old Texasburg Blitzkrieg was one reason why i joined this mod 8 years ago. Shame that story progression was more important than preserving active battle zones. Damn buffer-systems also killed the raids in Alpha and Gamma.
I doupt we will ever reach such dimensions ever again. And certainly not if wars are being rushed like nowadays.
Liberty-Rheinland war was glorious as it was simple fights for enjoyment. There was no risk losing and no way of winning war. That was the best part. Also, fighting in well known and connected systems was great too.
(03-26-2019, 01:25 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Yeah, something I noticed is a huge disconnect. We don't need fast constant and railroaded updates. Let the community work with the Dev team to curate quality updates. Sure, things may come slower, but you can't rush quality.
The updates are of extremely high quality in terms of ingame content, models, infocards, etc. We should frame the content issue as 'lore and faction agency', because that's what people are concerned with. The workmanship is very good. It's not about slowing down as much as it is about having skin in the game. Slowing down will mean that we never see the resolution of things like the gallic war.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
(03-26-2019, 01:25 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Yeah, something I noticed is a huge disconnect. We don't need fast constant and railroaded updates. Let the community work with the Dev team to curate quality updates. Sure, things may come slower, but you can't rush quality.
The updates are of extremely high quality in terms of ingame content, models, infocards, etc. We should frame the content issue as 'lore and faction agency', because that's what people are concerned with. The workmanship is very good. It's not about slowing down as much as it is about having skin in the game. Slowing down will mean that we never see the resolution of things like the gallic war.
But is the resolution really worth the enjoyment of everyone else in the way of the winning party?
(03-26-2019, 02:59 PM)Vendetta Wrote: But is the resolution really worth the enjoyment of everyone else in the way of the winning party?
I don't think anybody really knows the outcome yet apart from the current community consensus that the royalists will lose, which flips every time each respective side gains NPC assets in various systems.
Which side wins is less interesting to me than the gameplay dynamics of what comes after. I'd love to see trading return to the taus. That is something that could be hyperimpacted by problems like the ones you describe, Ven'. Like you say, it's all about fun, for both sides.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
(03-26-2019, 02:59 PM)Vendetta Wrote: But is the resolution really worth the enjoyment of everyone else in the way of the winning party?
I don't think anybody really knows the outcome yet apart from the current community consensus that the royalists will lose, which flips every time each respective side gains NPC assets in various systems.
Which side wins is less interesting to me than the gameplay dynamics of what comes after. I'd love to see trading return to the taus.
Whether they know objectively or not what the outcome is, this is an issue of a perceived problem and not what the storyline is going to be. It's a lack of communication with involved parties that led to the most recent shitshow and has nothing to do with what the actual outcome is going to be, but how said outcome is going to be reached.
As it sits right now, any opposition in the face of Bretonia probably feels the same way - nothing they do will have any impact on the railroaded events of Bretonia.