Bomber Balance

[Dab]

EDIT: No means get rid of the 48/58K bombers, and make them the same type of bomber as everyone else's. Yes means keep the Ku and BD Bombers the same as they have been.

Alright, we just got done dealing with a extremely-long version (4.84) in which we had a big problem concerning two bombers; Kusari Catamaran and Red Catamaran. Both were 48K energy core bombers with the agility of a VHF. In some cases, agility higher than that of a VHF. Now both of these bombers were given new models which make them larger from the side, but the same size from above/below/front/back. Furthermore, they were changed to 58K energy to make up for that larger model.

Now in some ways that may seems like a logical thing to do since they are easier to hit.. But those who had to fight them know that they needed downgraded, not just changed. Ku and Red Cat both. Now they have the ability to fire even more often, and are now just as deadly as before to all ship classes.

The idea behind these bombers was to have extra agility on low-armor bombers for quick strikes on capships, while the bigger ones had more energy to do more damage and handle more damage. While this was a good idea, in theory, it has turned out very very badly, and the BD and Ku Bombers are now the most despised bombers in the mod.

The turning rates on these ships have not been changed. They are the most agile bombers, up to the point of VHF turning, as they were before. Now this would be fine because of the lower armor, except for the fact that these bombers can instantly kill any fighter or other bomber with a single shot, that of a Supernova. And they have the agility to accomplish that with ease. All the fighters are forced to joust them because they cannot outturn them and stay behind. In every other case concerning a bomber vs fighter fight, those fighters can get behind the bomber and avoid jousting. With these two bombers, thats impossible.

So my question is; Should we have these VHF and Bomber-killing bombers which are also extremely deadly to all capships, and generally kill anything they come across, especially with certain loadouts? Or should these two bombers be made more in-line with other bombers of this mod?

As far as I'm concerned, we've had enough problems with these two bombers and balancing them with the rest of the mod. They're fighters who can SN. Changing them into traditional bombers would not require any changes to their model or hitbox, simply their energy core size, agility, and turn rate. Things easily changed. Balance in this mod can't exist when bombers of this type exist, and we'll continue to see Mercenaries using BD and Ku Bombers in places such as New York, Rheinland, and Bretonia, looking for nothing but the easy kill message.

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[Derkylos]

For once, I have to agree with Dab (Wut?!? Ohnoez!), but I would also like to add my own thoughts to the topic of bomber abilities.

You mention the "instakill" of the SN. There is very little that can be done to the SN to reduce it's potency in a fighter situation that will not also impact on it's anti-cap ability.

After some experimentation with my bombers and consideration of their roles in combat, I have ended up equipping every one with 4 shieldbusters. Why? Because, first of all, I can strip away an opposing fighter's shield in one pass and still have the ability to fire an SN into their (now-)unshielded hull. Secondly, with 4 debs, I can have a noticeable effect on anything up to a cruiser shield (even up to BS shields with Coladas), while concerving my energy for that all-important SN to hull.

I am of the opinion that removing gun slots from bombers entirely may be the way forward. With no guns, a bomber is forced to either use their SN to drop a fighter's shield, thus wasting one of their shots, or mount a MR next to the SN, removing their ability to control the fight via the use of CDs. This also means that a single bomber will have a much harder time dealing enough damage to a cruiser or GB to take it out alone, as far more of the SNs will be wasted on shields...or again, the bomber will sacrifice CD for MR, so the cap will just flee when they have taken too much damage.

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[Doom]

well using cats as point of decision for having 48/58 k bombers is not valid. Granted, they may be over the top and that is what makes them bad for example, but there are bombers who dont need to have military power to be useful. Such are Civilian, IMG and GMG bombers...Civ and IMG bombers are both large ships, not agile as cats and not powerful like navy bombers. However they are useful....BHG bomber too...

so yes...i think we should have more and less powerful bomber...every other class has power core variations, so should bombers....

EDIT: bomber weapons are another matter...they should have some ability to defend themselves...but not as good as some have right now...

[Grumblesaur]

I totally agree.

Seeing Grimly's Bellerophon-B in NY ticks me off.

Though Derkylos, removing guns from bombers just makes them flying torpedo launchers. Four guns really isn't enough to hurt anything but fighters now, especially with the new mod.
IMO, any fighter that can't dodge an SN needs to strafe more.

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A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay,
brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.

[Orin]

I don't even fly one of either, and I'm for keeping them the same. There's nothing wrong with certain ships being superior to others in my opinion.

[Gamazson]

I agree that bombers need to have reduced effectiveness against other fighters. Perhaps reducing the level of guns they can mount?

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AKA Nexus

[Drake]

I agree, very much so, but I'm unsure whether or not I'm supposed to vote yes or no to the poll question. It's unclear.

[McNeo]

I think we should wait and see how the new cats turn out before making any pre-emptive decisions regarding them. This is because now, they will be hittable targets for other bombers whilst also not being able to dodge forever like they used to.

However, I'd like to see how long a GC bomber would last against a Dragon/KNF bomber, considering their differences. Maybe the Dragon/KNF bomber needs to get bumped back down to 48k instead of the 58k it is now, if such a fight lasts the 30 seconds I think it would.

I do however support the inclusion of differing powerplants for bombers in the same way that I support the inclusion of differing powerplants for capital ships.

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Reducing the effectiveness of the bomber class against fighters while not affecting or augmenting their usefulness against capital ships has been on the agenda though.

[Dab]

I don't even fly one of either, and I'm for keeping them the same. There's nothing wrong with certain ships being superior to others in my opinion.

You've never fought a Ku/BD Bomber with a fighter. There's nothing wrong with certain ships being superior, but what about a bomber that can outturn a fighter and use an SN?

I agree, very much so, but I'm unsure whether or not I'm supposed to vote yes or no to the poll question. It's unclear.

Edited first post to answer.

@McNeo: I have fought them. The Ku Bomber was turning as fast sa my GC HF. GC HF being one of the fastest-turning HFs atm. Now compare it with GC bomber.. Its twice as good. I watched that fight and the GC bomber stands no chance whatsoever. Its like fighting a fighter in the GC bomber, except that fighter has an SN and can insta-kill you quite easily.

And the problem isn't the core at the moment. Its the turn rate. The core is just tied in with it. 48K/58K bombers are just named as such. It specifies a class of ship.

EDIT: What you said at the bottom of your post is exactly what I want to do. Bombers shouldn't be good against fighters.. They shouldn't be killed within a minute of course, but shouldn't be able to beat a fighter 3 out of 4 times. At the same time, we need to make sure they are still as good against capships.

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[McNeo]

Since I can just about keep up with (but not out turn) an old cat with an old titan, maybe your GC HF was broken? By that, I mean that we had about the same turn rates, but the cat had slightly slower response times. If the GC HF is meant to turn like the Eagle does, then you should easily be able to outmaneuvre even the fastest bombers on the market.

My main concern with the GC bomber would be its size. Maybe the new catamaran needs another nerf. However, I'd wait and see for a little while. After all, the new version only came out a few days ago, and people are still trying out all the new toys. Once the KNF/Bret war begins in earnest hopefully some time soon, we'll see if the new cat is overpowered still or not.

EDIT: Yeah, thats what was being discussed, last I checked. I'll edit the bottom of my post to make it a tad clearer though. No need to change the powerplants on the bombers if we can find a way to do this using the gun slots.