If I recall correctly the zoner give limits on who they give their weapons too and also limit those people of what they can be used for except for the zoners. And they give their best of the best guns to the Order. Seems like a support in a war effort to me.
And people can't always stay neutral forever. Just saying.
I remember some countries back on earth in WWII that were neutral but it didn't go as they expected.
one has to differentiate between - lets say the Core ... and the BHG.
the BHG is a loose guild of professional hunters. - but the major point is that it provides a network of contracts - yet every hunter works either alone or in a small team. - a bounty hunter can also take a contract that was not given by the BHG network - the bhg network just makes things easier - which gives a bhg ( in RP ) the edge over the common freelancer / mercenary - who relies on his own network of contact.
the core however is - as montezuma said ... not the bhg. - they don t really take bounties - and act as a military. - they are also not vanilla - hence need to become a part of the vanilla balance still.
a problem that the whole BHG faction suffers from is the lack of infrastructure. - if we leave out guard systems, which are often quite ooRP, cause they are build on request rather than possibilities ( in general, not in particular here ) - they have 2 bases. - rostock.... and dabadoru.
for a siriuswide faction - that is also looking to expand into a newly found house - thats very little.
BHG depend on police bases in house space..... and freeports in the edgeworlds... unless they get more allies. - this is not a one sided dependency though.... bhg ( in vanilla ) provide mutual protection for the bases they are staged on ( meaning freeports ).
all in all - gallia perverts many of the sirius ideals. - unlawfuls fighting the lawfuls in gallia are indeed those that welcome lawfuls in sirius the most. - while the lawfuls in gallia are the villains in sirius. ( even up to another quality than kusari / bretonia - or liberty / rheinland )
the bhg - the hunters - should easily be able to take contracts by the gallic unlawfuls....
why? - the whole "rule" is based on a character guideline.
BHG take lawful contracts - cause they decided to be a lawful force. - lawful by sirius standards, mind. - and that is the point. - lawful does not equal lawful.... a policeman may be sworn to keep up the law in his country - and in his country that means ... he protects the innocent and hunts down those that wish to hurt the innocent.
however - in another country the law might say "you must hunt down the innocent and praise the villains" - the same policeman would not hold up that law, cause it goes against all he considers "lawful".
lawful - is an ideal rather than the letter of the law in that case. - a house of lawfuls whos only purpose is to invade and kill is not lawful by the BHG standards. so allying with the unlawfuls ( unlawful from the pov of the lawfuls in that house ) is an option... but ONLY if the methods of those unlawfuls match the ideal of a lawful by sirius standards.
so a terrorist might not be a possible ally, even if he fights another villain.
and as mentioned before - if the bhg cannot count on bases in these regions - they cannot operate there anyway. - so they must find a someone that matches their idea of "lawful" - that is also willing to provide shelter. - after all, they cannot fly from rostock to the gallic regions all the time.
the core again is a military section. - they may have their own agenda and motives. - but they do also depend heavily on what bases they can use. - currently they have one single base in delta - which is about as far from gallia as it can get. the core however is more suited to fight for a higher ideal - and for their own good of course, then the common BHG, - simply cause they can make a greater impact.
considering that the bhg core and the order have maintained a balance in the omicrons - its hard to believe that they can fight a two frontier war though.... cause the problematic thing about balance is that even a tiny bit can upset it. - so if they retreat from the omicrons - the conflict there might be lost.... either forever or they d need a huge efford to regain what they lost again. - unless they have made more allies in the region.
If you discounted Omega-56 and the three bases there, the Guild has bases based upon vanilla on Texas, Hamburg, Deshima Station and of course Sheffield, in addition to the stuff out in the boonies.
But as has been said many, many times in the past - while things are based upon vanilla, this isn't vanilla anymore, this is Disco, set nearly 20 years AFTER vanilla. I also agree that we ought to have more bases of our own somewhere - yet I also remember the fight for us to just get Dabadoru.
One key advantage that we do have is that we can go into any houses space, even some of Kusari, and we can dock at any lawful base that's not in someone else's Guard system. So we can have small staging areas where we need. This dust-up with the Zoners regarding the Freeports is, in the grand scheme of things, something relatively minor. They're ticked, we're ticked, but eventually we'll all get over it and be back having bar fights in the Freeports before you know it.
Something you've left out of your analysis regarding the two front war is that the Guild has several different subsidiary branches. For example, the Moray squadron is a bomber wing designed to go in and eliminate all enemy cap ships. The 22nd squadron is a light fighter wing designed to go in and annoy the hell out of people. The Avenger squadron is another, smaller group of hunters that joined the Guild lock, stock, and barrel. And obviously, the whole existing BHG| and BHG|Core originally came from the merging of the S/D and the Core into one faction.
As well, we HAVE been fighting a two front war out here, effectively, which is something I think you're overlooking. The one front has been against the Order and Nomads - the other was against the Corsairs. We're no longer fighting on that front, thanks to some effective diplomacy. So we've freed up some ships for action somewhere else. During our recent relocation, for example, we had 3 Mako battleships head out. We still have another 8 available for operations down there. This also lets our guys see more of Sirius than just the same old space, too, and lets our secret |Core pilots recruit from the regular pilots as well... (plans within plans...)
Also, of course, is the minor detail that we'd like to see how well our ships do in combat against other ships besides the Ossie and Geb, and still have it be in RP. We went into Alpha with a Battlecruiser and Thresher recently and took out a Ransuer for the cost of the Battlecruiser. It's not really writ in stone that we have to always sit in Delta and fight only the Order - we need to be going anywhere that we possibly can get Nomad or other interesting tech. Gallic tech is about as interesting as it can get right now...
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
thats what we have mercs for. - the lawful side is clearly defined. - just cause the lawful side doesn t like you and the unlawful side wants you to join doesn t mean that you can disregard that fact that you "cannot ally with unlawfuls". unless we can choose what "law" we consider to be just lawful enough situationally.
so to satisfy the RULES - we could flag the GRN to be unlawful ( by sirius standards ) - and the council and the others to be lawful.
all that doesn t mean that you cannot fight in or against gallia - it just means who you can team up with to satisfy whats written in the ID.
about the core...
in order to operate in or around gallia - i d suggest at least an addition to the ID description - since it appears that the reason for the core to exist is to exploit nomad secrets, solving any other conflicts is not mentioned with any word.
"A powerful and well-organized elite of Bounty Hunters known as the Guild Core is eager to explore Nomad space in search of alien artefacts and technologies that can be found there. Having nearly limitless resources, the Core initiated a bloody war with The Order to gain passage to remote Nomad systems."
Personally, I think that in the grand scheme of things the Guild (as a whole, not just the hunters or the Core) doesn't give a damn who's paying them. They want money, they want power, and they've stuck to the lawful side of the fence because that's been a good way to get both without attracting the hostility of more powerful foes. Few recruits taken from prisons are really in it for atonement, most of them just want an easy parole and a way back to killing people for money. These are not the good guys.
The Guild will do just as it has always done- what is in the interests of the Guild. The colonies trust the Guild to keep helping them in exchange for a generous helping of money. The Guild has been doing this for far longer than any war in Discovery has lasted, and they have the patience to know that it's in their long-term best interests not to pick sides lawful vs lawful, and to just stick with what they've done for decades- killing criminals for money. With the incoming Gallic advance, though, everything is shaken out of balance. House Bretonia cannot be a good customer if the fleur-de-lys flies over parliament while the masses chant "Peace at last!" Since Gallia has expressed no interest in besmirching their internal image of invulnerability by hiring the Guild, it becomes a simple decision. Do you keep your customers alive to pay you later, or do you let them die and pray that when the dust settles, Gallia decides "yeah sure".
To me, the choice is obvious. In the Guild's eyes, if they don't stand with Sirius, there won't be anyone left to pay them. Besides, if they turn the tides, they might be lauded as heroes... and that means more opportunities. Empires can be forged by more than just force of arms, remember.
' Wrote:the core point however is - who is lawful in gallia : can you answer me that...
what kind of "lawful" is the BHG. do they abide to the meta meaning of lawful ( like ethics )? or to the letter or the law. the answer to that also answers who you can team up with in gallia - if you can team up with anyone at all.
That's part of why we brought out this discussion, due to the distinction that needs to be made between rule (ID card) lawful versus moral / ethical (and more importantly, RP) lawful, and to get things clarified BEFORE things get acrimonious.
Bounty Hunter lawful has always been of two kinds.
First is the in-house stuff, where the npc hunters are effectively auxiliary police, and the regular player hunters work closely with the police and navy to both enforce the laws of the houses and to make some credits while doing so. Since the Guild does work with all of the Sirius houses now (remember for a while we didn't work with Kusari) so now we're not going to take a contract against any of the houses from one of the other houses. (Again, for a while anyway we might have helped a little in Leeds...)
Then we get the out of house stuff, where lawful can be ... different. For example, the Corsair and Outcast governments have their own laws, but since we normally are trying to collect bounties upon them, those groups are considered unlawful by most people of Sirius. The Order is lawful as well, but we're always fighting them, too. And then there's Zoners, where we actually have tried to respect (at least up until recently) the laws of the Freeports, as long as it's consistent with OUR RP. (Remember, our ID says that we can lawfully demand nomads - respect works both ways.)
So yeah, the GRN and GRP are lawful - in Gallia. In Sirius, they would be war combatants, and we as a PMC would be able to take contracts against them since in the end, we're still residents of Sirius, not Gallia. (I could see us getting letters of marque for operations behind the lines - and of course, that's going to make things even MORE interesting when dealing with the Taus and the IMG.)
I forsee a lot of fun and interesting RP in the future due to this invasion.
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
before you jump me again for missing out a stations that slipped my memory....
in RP - yes.. the bhg ( not the core ) can join the council or those gallic unlawfuls that do NOT practice terroristic actions - that contradict established ethical standards.
but the ID needs to be changed for that - so it may say "cannot ally with unlawfuls except XXXXX"
cause if its not written in the ID - other factions could also argue against their ID limitations - enough roleplay reasons provided.
And that's why I think (or hope, anyway) that someone is reviewing things. It's probably not something that's come up in discussions before would be my guess.
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
Sounds to me the Guild is attempting to decide who the badguys are in Gallia. Considering the royals want to wipe Sirians, probably including the BHG, or at least their best employers, out, it makes sense they are branded enemies. Supporting their direct opposing factions (political/revolutionary opposition rather then brigandry) makes sense. This would put them in league with factions like the Council and the Maquis. Perhaps not to the point of alliances, but certainly neutrality.
Gallic Brigands would be little more then pirates, not unlike the Liberty Rogues (local to one house). Allying with them would not make sense for the BHG.
Question becomes how active the guild (not the core - why would they? No Nomad tech in Gallia... though, the Gallian weapons are superior to Sirian, at least now. Maybe...) is going to be in the area, and from what bases. IMG has a number of bases in the Taus, and there are two freeports. They'd need some kind of base of operations. In Vanilla BH were often spotted around IMG bases (Hood is a good example) so I imagine in that setting they provided, to some extent, security for them. A deal like that, for the Taus, isn't too far fetched.
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From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.
Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.
I went to Gallic systems in one my of chars, Freelancer IFF, Merc ID. Both the Gallic Navy and Police factions are hostile while almost all other are neutral. Now this makes me wonder who is actually lawful there. Although this might be due to the char being a liberty civilian will check how things go with a gallic civilian entering other sirius systems.
Also regarding BHG, after thinking for a while I stumbled upon an idea. Their are 4 main lawful governments, they might be at war with each other but they are still lawful in their own areas. Now I understand that Gallic navy is hostile to all sirians, but what I have read from "Discovery 4.86 Storyline: Kusari in 818 A.S." and I quote a para from there
"Kusari signed a peace treaty with Gallia in which Kusari would renounce any claims or plans of expansion in Tau sector, and acknowledge the Tau-29 system to be a buffer zone between the two Houses that would allow only minimal military and police presence to provide security for traders and civilians. Also, Kusari corporate traders were the first of all four "official" Houses who were allowed to purchase special passages and come to Gallic systems to trade with Gallic companies."
Now reading this gives a clear picture Gallia is just another House that is at war with some of the other houses. If the BHG remains true to what it should be (and I am not talking about the core, I still don't understand the idea behind core) then they should see Gallic Navy as a lawful entity.
[\JG/]BugsBunny
Information, the first principle of warfare, must form the foundation of all your efforts. Know, of course, thine enemy. But in knowing him do not forget above all to know thyself. The commander who embraces this totality of battle shall win even with inferior force.