Yeah, this is probably going to turn into one of those long posts I make from time to time, so if you have issues with a wall of text, skip it and don't bother commenting.
Also, please no metagaming due to certain things that will be mentioned in here, either.
Okay, as we all know we have had some issues with the Bounty Hunters Guild Core ID and what people DO with that ID, as well as how it's viewed by people. This also comes from the conflict that comes up with the PvP / Bounty rules verus our role play as the BHG|Core. We also realize that this is exacerbated by there quite literally not being anyone around anymore who was in the original Core - so while their role play may have been discussed with them by the Devs, we're not them anymore.
We've had a long discussion about where we want to go with the Guild Core, and with public perceptions. I'll go through some of the results here.
First, the public perception (and for general public consumption) is that Bounty Hunters Guild Core is a subsidiary of the Bounty Hunters Guild. However, the REALITY is that the Guild is a subsidiary of the Guild Core. Some of the back history is that the Guild Core was founded by a group of wealthy Bretonians that had been made that way by their ship and station building endeavors and quite frankly, are their own empire builders. Some of this was mentioned and discussed here - http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67255.
' Wrote:A note on why the Guild funds the Core- the Core brings back important weapons and resources for the rest of them. More importantly, however, some of the leaders of the Guild are megalomaniacs, and like the idea of conquering stuff rather than just being filthy rich. A dedicated, professional navy can do things that a guild cannot. Hold ground, claim the resources on that territory, and carve out an empire from the less tangible riches of Nomad space. A full monopoly on the iridium surrounding Dabadoru, for instance, would not be possible without a Core fleet protecting it; that's income right there, and it will only pay off more as those less tangible technological improvements start coming in.
The Core uses Guild weapons and ships because they're employed by the same wad of cash (and more importantly, the same wad of cash's engineers).
So, we've established that the Guild Core is an actual (effectively private) Navy, NOT just a group of bounty hunters in big ships.
Now we have fun with the ID.
Quote:Can attack Order, Nomad or Wilde and anyone actively assisting them.
Can demand allied pilots, Nomad technology and Nomad specimens from other ships and destroy ships if they refuse to hand them over (Cruisers or Battleships may demand pilots only).
That's where, with the splitting between the Order and the Corsairs, we laid down the basis for our NAP with the Corsairs, which has worked diplomatically, but slowed down a lot of the combat in the Omicrons. (You can only shoot the Order so many times.) This also was the basis for our little war with the Zoners in the Omicrons, because they were assisting the Order and also wouldn't turn over captured Nomads.
And that also resulted in charges of effectively our entire faction being guilty of PvP abuse, because we were not attacking people to claim bounties, we were attacking people that we were allowed to shoot under our ID. There was a bounty open that we could claim - we just weren't claiming it because we didn't feel that we needed to do so - for exactly the same reason that the LN doesn't have to claim bounties against the RM, or the BAF doesn't have to claim bounties against the KNF. It's allowed under our ID.
And that also brings up something that we have said for more than TWO YEARS. We as a faction don't collect bounties, and we'd like to see the ID changed to reflect that the Guild Core may NOT claim bounties. Note that this would, by its very nature, eliminate any issues regarding cap ships working as miner escorts in Omega 7. (And would also eliminate the issue of us getting involved with the GRN war with our caps, too, that people have been freaking out about. We said that the only reason we were interested in them was because they have strange tech - and strange tech is what we're interested in.)
Yeah, from your general public sense, you're going wait, but your name is the Bounty Hunters Guild Core, but you don't colelct bounties? WTF?
That ALSO fits into our RP, though. We are a secretive group that happens to fly some of the same ships as the regular hunters because we SUPPLY the ships to the regular hunters. But we're not regular hunters - we're a group that is seeking our own little empire. And we're working on getting it ... in RP, of course.
I refer you AGAIN to the post Dash made, which is consistent with our internal RP. We're a secretive bunch that
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
If you do that, drop the name "Bounty Hunter" from the ID entirely to prevent confusing peeps. Just name it "The Core". If you don't hunt bounties, stop calling yourself bounty hunters;)
But if you're going to be an expansionist navy bent on military domination and conquest of valuable planets and resources - you're going to run afoul of the houses eventually. I suggest you clarify your mission statement. Which systems do you want to claim? Which resources do you need to secure? What ground do you intend to take - and hold?
Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.
Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.
agmen, you stated your point of view on the most recent debacles / events - but what is it you want?
i can write you up what the BHG and Core is / was meant to be like, but i dare say, you wouldn t really like it much, cause it limits the faction a lot more than you really wish to, i guess.
about the corsair NAP and the still ongoing "limited war" against the zoners that started in the zoner hunting season .. /shrug .... its up to you to judge if your reasons were both, sufficient AND multi-lateral to make it proper.
in short
bounty hunters: ( Vanilla )
- organized, sirius-wide, police substitute that dares to go where the police does not dare to go
- unmatched network all across sirius giving them the "edge" over the local police
core: ( Igiss´ imagination )
- out there to seek nomad technology, even if the order stands in its way.
- exploring researchers with a big gun, NOT actually a real military. ( original concept, not a player-written custom lore )
edit:
when i say "limits the faction" - thats not actually true ...
the original format the BHG / Core would work - would totally free up the BHG, and put the Core onto a very tight leash.
Just be damned happy of what you already have and face the uncomfortable truth that your faction isn't deemed important enough to be advanced beyond your herp-a-derp vanilla-ish origins.
I accepted this, and I've never been happier. (faked smile)
' Wrote:That's where, with the splitting between the Order and the Corsairs, we laid down the basis for our NAP with the Corsairs, which has worked diplomatically, but slowed down a lot of the combat in the Omicrons. (You can only shoot the Order so many times.) This also was the basis for our little war with the Zoners in the Omicrons, because they were assisting the Order and also wouldn't turn over captured Nomads.
And that also resulted in charges of effectively our entire faction being guilty of PvP abuse, because we were not attacking people to claim bounties, we were attacking people that we were allowed to shoot under our ID.
You weren't allowde under your ID. Told again and again and you still don't understand. Actively assisting does not mean supplying the Order with goods when you're not around. If you caught a Zoner trader going to Toledo, sure, kill him. Catch one helping the Order in a fight, sure, kill him. You can't, however, declare all Zoners in the Omicrons enemies of the BHG Core just because they help give supplies to the Order. Food, medical, etc. The same stuff they give the Outcasts, the Corsairs, YOU. You were violating both your ID and the bounty rules, and that's why you were stopped. PLEASE understand this.
' Wrote:There was a bounty open that we could claim - we just weren't claiming it because we didn't feel that we needed to do so - for exactly the same reason that the LN doesn't have to claim bounties against the RM, or the BAF doesn't have to claim bounties against the KNF. It's allowed under our ID.
The LN, BAF, KNF, RM don't hunt bounties because their ID forbids them from collecting on bounties. They are allowed to kill their enemies by ID, yes. The BHG Core, however, was attacking people its ID did NOT allow them to attack.
The bounty rules clearly state, attacking anyone means you must claim the bounty for the kill. You did not follow this rule but decided, on your own, that you didn't have to. In short, you took matters into your own hands and decided that rules that applied to everyone else, did not apply to you.
I wouldn't mind considering a change to the Core ID at all, if you had shown you were responsible enough to handle the situation appropriately if given the freedom. But you've shown you're not.
Prove me wrong, then ask for changes to your ID. After you've shown you can be trusted with the level of freedom.
Yeah, I realized that when I was done with this, I'd forgotten to include where we want to go.
First off, as Aeternus suggested, we WOULD like to see the Bounty Hunter in the main identifier dropped. Our actual empire building isn't anywhere in existing house space, so we have no issues conflicting with the Sirius houses. (That's why we've been concerned about Gallia - they may upset our applecart.) To be honest, we'd like the Omegas. All of them. Yes, we're megalomaniacs - we know that, and don't have issues with that. We're after the power that the Nomad weapons represent to help us get our goal.
Second, Jinx, like I said, that's where we have fun, because I have a feeling we've gone with our history in a completely 180 degree from how the devs intended. We've written it that while the public face is that the Guild controls in the Core, in reality it's the other way around. Thus the whole secrecy thing. Guild Core, what Guild Core, we don't know what you're talking about sort of stuff...
And that's why we're bringing this up and out into the open with you guys, because we want to work with you on getting ourselves updated with you.
Jameson - WHAT vanilla origins? If we were only the Bounty Hunters Guild, then we'd be happy with that - other than actually having to become the Sirius Police. The Guild Core isn't part of vanilla.
Dab - can we agree to disagree?
We think you're wrong with that interpretation - and it was left up in the air months ago about what the Admins were going to do about it. And so far, other than having the base bounty board unlocked, I haven't seen anything else written down one way or the other about their decision. I freely admit that I can be stubborn and obstinate when arguing a position - especially when I think I'm right. If you actually look at the background - again, we did not target ALL Zoners everywhere, and we made it clear that we were not targeting ALL Zoners. Only those that were allied with the Order.
It boils down to the comment 'actively assisting'. From a SHORT term combat basis - sure, you get someone running supplies in to an Order base or joining up on their side, that's an obvious drop kick. From a long term perspective - as I said before, that's one reason why we had no issues signing an NAP with the Corsairs, and why continuing to shoot Corsairs in the Omicrons after they broke up with the Order as allies with them would be wrong. From the LONG term perspective - you can't tell me that giving someone a base to stage their attacks upon you is not actively assisting them. That's why we got Daba out there, because we couldn't stage from FP11 anymore. (Or at least that's my understanding of why we got Daba...) Let them dock, get resupplied, and then have 'em move along - that's all we asked for.
(One of those minor details - Zoners are listed as being allied with the Order. So until they changed that alliance, as the Corsairs did, what exactly IS the difference between actively assisting and an ally?)
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
All the Omegas? Interesting, that's going to bring you into conflict with the Zoners, Corsairs, Hessians... and if you claim 3, 7 and 11 as well, IMG, Bretonia and Rheinland. Reminds me of the CR a bit, trying to do more or less the same thing in the upper Taus.
As for the Zoners. Discern, Agmen. There is no "Zoners" anymore. Just clusters of bases based on location and free roaming zoners that are basically freelancers that can't attack.
The Omicroners have an alliance with Order - based on the fact that they need eachother. Zoners need protection from Nomads, Order needs supplies from Omicroners. The OSI, and TAZ are nowhere near the Omicrons - not sure how "allied" those factions are to the Order, if at all. And the random freeport local administrators? Probably would let both Core and Order dock based on the Freeport principle.
Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.
Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.
- revising a faction and adjusting it reasonably to a new situation is not a bad thing
- totally revamping a faction however is likely to be bad
secondly:
- most space is as you may say "taken".
-- omegas ( claimed by Zoners, Corsairs, Coalition, Hessians, Wild - and on the rim even by house cooperations and independent cooperations ) - i don t see the BHG building "an empire" there
-- omicrons ( claimed by Corsairs, Zoners, Order, Nomads, Wild ) - there is not much political room for "an empire" either
-- Tau space ( well - forget about it, its in the path of the invasion )
-- Sigma space ( claimed by too many, also lawful cooperations to allow an uprising "empire" )
or to be blunt
- i do not think that there is room for another major military power anywhere. there is a certain "balance of powers" ( politically ) - which should not be upset too much.
in my opinion - the Core and the BHG offer tremendous freedom and RP possibilities as they were originally thought out to be like. - some rules ruined the BHG ( but mind you, i don t remember many of the BHG players to really veto against those rules - when i used the search - i only see a lot of players saying how great these new rules are. )
so from a dev pov, i d be extremely suspicious to turn the BHG core into a "rimworld-house". but i m open to be convinced of how it is beneficial and fitting.
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