' Wrote:The 5.88 Zoner, Gaian and GC guns are still complete crap. Their efficiency sucks so hard, it's not even funny anymore. Compare them to the Gallic Civillian 5.88 Lasers or the Hessian 5.88 Lasers and make your decisions.
Damage to Energy ratio, higher is better
Hessian efficiency: 3.91
Gallic Civillian efficiency: 4.1
Golden Chrysantemum efficiency: 3.73
Gaian efficiency: 3.55
Zoner efficiency (Fury 5): 3.64
As a comparision: Heavy Flashpoint efficiency: 4.29
Vengeance V efficiency: 4.63
There is no excuse for these vast differences, they are all 750m/s guns and they're all of the same group (Laser/Photon)
8.33 were buffed across the board, they are damn efficient and have nice DPS. And most of them are 750m/s too. So I do not get why 5.88 are so extremely crippled and especially so different among themselves, regarding energy efficiency.
Issue persists. Zoner, Gaian and GC guns are still bad and inconsistent with their "brethren", namely the Hessian and Gallic civillian gun. Given that it "only" takes a little number tweak on the energy, it should be easy to fix?
Many people, myself included, feel that the bottlenose is a bit too effective at fighting larger ships.
Now, before you reply hatefully, this is not a "QQ Bnose OP" post.
This is a post to change the Bottlenose so that it is more effective at what it's supposed to be: A fighter/bomber hunter, and less incredibly effective at what it is not intended for: killing battleships.
I'm not talking about making it weaker or slower, no, this is how I believe this can be accomplished:
Many people see the Bottlenose as more of a Super Heavy Fighter, so I suppose it should be moved a little bit closer to that role. And I'm sure all of us can agree that the Bottlenose's purpose was supposed to be for hunting down criminals that are in fighters and bombers. Right now, the bottlenose is about the same at that job as other gunboats are. In fact, some gunboats are better at that job than the bottlenose. What the bottlenose is good at, unfortunately, is killing capital ships, which is not what it was intended for.
Here's what I propose:
Change the turret arcs of the bottlenose. At the moment, it performs best against enemies that are to the sides, below, and behind it, and less effective against enemies that are in front of it. This makes it less effective at chasing down fighters and bombers, and more effective at turret steering around capitals.
I propose changing the arcs so that all 6 turrets can fire forwards, making it most effective in cockpit view for fighting fighters and bombers, as it was intended. At the same time, it will fire only four of its turrets backwards, and the arcs will split down the middle with it only firing three turrets to the sides. This will make it less effective against capital ships, which the bottlenose would usually have its side towards.
No, I'm not saying "Make it slaughter snubs and useless against caps". It would still be capable of fighting battleships. It just wouldn't be able to so easily fly in and solo-fight a battleship.
Secondly, I suggest removing turret zoom from the bottlenose, and increasing its strafing speed. This would promote the use of cockpit view and strafing to fight bombers and fighters, while at the same time removing its ability to turn out of control while auto-aiming.
Essentially, this would make the bottlenose focused around what it was built to do: Hunt fighters and bombers.
I'm not trying to nerf the bottlenose into the ground. I actually have a bottlenose myself, and it's my favorite gunship. I've fought many kinds of ships with it, and I've also fought against a bottlenose using many kinds of ships, and from my experience they are extremely effective against capital ships, and against fighters and bombers they perform as the average gunship would.
Another benefit of these changes would be that the Orca, the bottlenose's unappreciated brother, would be brought back into business. The Orca's forward gun and ability to turret zoom would make it more effective against larger targets than the bottlenose, as the Orca was originally intended to be.
The Bottlenose and all GBs are being dealt with TLI-Inferno. You are correct they are to powerful and are being fixed in .87 by having their DPS cut in half for their primary turrets.
(01-26-2013, 02:16 AM)Veygaar Wrote: The Bottlenose and all GBs are being dealt with TLI-Inferno. You are correct they are to powerful and are being fixed in .87 by having their DPS cut in half for their primary turrets.
That will only make them useless. The problem right now is that they're too effective against capital ships, not that they're overall too powerful. Cutting their damage in half will make them absolutely useless, as they would then have much less damage output than even fighters have. Fighters can get guns up to 2,800 DPS. You cut gunship primary damage in half, then light fighters will have more damage output than gunships...
Or, it makes them use Cerberus GB turrets for larger targets, and Pulse/Razor boats are more effective again for those who have the skills to use them. There are still Solaris and nerfed Primaries for a "middle ground but not as good as either end of the spectrum". They can still be used as space-supremacy ships in snub fights, scare off targets when called for, or act as a damage sponge while the allied snubs do their thing.
(01-26-2013, 05:33 PM)SummerMcLovin Wrote: Or, it makes them use Cerberus GB turrets for larger targets, and Pulse/Razor boats are more effective again for those who have the skills to use them. There are still Solaris and nerfed Primaries for a "middle ground but not as good as either end of the spectrum". They can still be used as space-supremacy ships in snub fights, scare off targets when called for, or act as a damage sponge while the allied snubs do their thing.
With primary turret damage cut in half, they would have significantly less damage output even than light fighters. Scare people off? Not likely, the only thing they could do is "damage sponge". That's not what gunboats are supposed to be. Gunboats are supposed to be for killing fighters and bombers, and you're talking about weakening the only weapon they can do that with?
That will just make the problem even WORSE as you see fully cerbed gunboats flying around killing capital ships while being less effective against fighters and bombers than before, bringing them even further away from their original purpose.
"Hey, joe's too close to the fire, let's solve the problem by pushing him into it".
Anyway, I've got another balance issue to point out:
The Geisha Kusari Luxury Yacht. Its weapon arcs are so bad. Seriously, if I'm going to pay 60,000,000 credits for a transport with only 2,500 cargo, it sure as hell better at least be more combat-effective than other transports. It fires 7 weapons forwards (the direction transports are least likely to fire in) and 4 turrets in other directions. It also has only 75,000 hull. I might as well have bought a Percheron for 12 million, it has 2,500 cargo space, fires 5 forward 4 in other directions, and is a much smaller target than the geisha. Please, please, I really want to actually use the Geisha. I've flown lots and lots of transports, and the idea of the geisha is neat -- An expensive low-cargo transport. But such a ship needs to actually be combat-effective to be worth spending so much on a transport that has such a small cargo hold.
What I'm saying is that it needs more firepower. It should have its weapon arcs changed, or have turrets added. It should fire at least 8 turrets in all directions. Otherwise it's not worth the price, since I might as well just use the Borderworlds Transport, costs 40 million, has more hull, 9 turrets, 3,500 cargo, can be used with any ID... Or, with the geisha costing 60million, might as well save slightly more for a heavy transport with 4,200 cargo and 12 turrets with significantly more hull. So what makes the geisha worth buying? Low cargo, low hull, low firepower... Sure, it moves fast enough to outrun other transports and gunboats, but that won't do much good against its enemies which will usually be fighters or bombers, will it? No, they'll still be tagging along shooting it in the back with no problem while it can hardly fire any of its turrets backwards.
I do not know do it was mentioned before so my apologise if I repeat someone other suggestion.
All my observations are not really from directly using a ship but from observing how they perform in 1 vs 1 and fleet combat used by both experienced pilots and inexperienced ones.
AI cruiser, it is hit box and shape is broken, no matter do you use battleship, cruiser or gunboat turrets, they will always miss ( on rouge gunboat, I missed 50% of primaries, I tried to target it is weapons and components but it did not bring any results ).
I do not really remember, but I think that aiming box on bounty hunter destroyer or battle cruiser is a little broken, but not sure, it may be just ship shape what make it hard to hit ).
Navy for years fight rheinalnders ( and in 4:86 always tons of croziers with missiles and battleships with cerberus and cloaks ), while having pathetic light bomber what not only is more easy to hit then rheinalnd medium bomber but also having weaker power core, can navy bomber be turned into medium bomber or just simply replaced with medium bomber, or can navy just get a medium and heavy bomber to choice ? ).
Rheinalnd always had medium OP bomber and heavy bomber again navy capital ships ( as result rheinland always had more players interested in getting bombers again navy while navy players always stick with caps since bomber is poor alternative ).
So my suggestion, nerf rheinalnd medium bomber, change navy light bomber into medium bomber or give navy medium and heavy bomber as alternative.
Galia bombers are OP, and they are abused by factions like reaver mercenary company, this bomber have a lot of regens and can strafe as fast as fighter, I often saw one reaver evading 2 fighters fire without lossing shield or taking out fighters with they SANC, and I bet skills alone are not the only reason for it ( suggestion, reduce strafe speed, reduce bomber survivability and agility ).
BH bottle nose ( I do not know how it will work after rebalancing turrets, but in 4:86 thanks to it is tiny size, high agility, gunboat shield and 6 turrets what shot back, bottle nose can defeat every gunboat in duel, solo cruiser and it far to hard to kill ).
Bretonia gunboat as it work better again medium gunboats in duel and have nice fire power, it still fail again light gunboats like rouge gunboat, and is easy target for bombers because of it is big size, from what I hear from former CONVOY gunboat users, they said that this gunboat forward gun helped them to snipe bombers, but I often defeated bretonia gunboat users easy with my rouge gunboat or just watched how bombers kill it ( size reduction or turret number increase is suggested ).
LABC even if useful in 1 vs 1 duel, in fleet battle it is not as effective because of 120 speed and big size ( while rheinland cruisers thanks to they shape can evade a lot of fire and get out of LABC range, LABC have hard time catching up with escaping cruiser and is almost unable to evade any attack if it is followed ).
In distance under 1k away from battleship LABC is almost unable to evade primaries and cerberus fire.
( While Bounty hunter BC and Kuzary BC have 140 speed and better shape for fire evasion ), my suggestion, increase LABC thuster speed from 120 to 130 or reduce it is size to increase it is evasion.
(01-26-2013, 02:16 AM)Veygaar Wrote: The Bottlenose and all GBs are being dealt with TLI-Inferno. You are correct they are to powerful and are being fixed in .87 by having their DPS cut in half for their primary turrets.
That will only make them useless. The problem right now is that they're too effective against capital ships, not that they're overall too powerful. Cutting their damage in half will make them absolutely useless, as they would then have much less damage output than even fighters have. Fighters can get guns up to 2,800 DPS. You cut gunship primary damage in half, then light fighters will have more damage output than gunships...
The only reason why no one use cerberus is because they cost a lot of energy and they miss everything ( they can fire croziers and battleships from safer distance however it just make gunboat run out of power before it can even break shield ).
Cerberus in fight again enemy gunboat are useless because they miss every time, and again subs they are not effective because they still miss to often.
reducing primary turrets speed to 1000 will just make them miss as often as cerberus do and still do less damage then cerberus, no one will use them.
In fight subcraft vs gunboat, it is like that, subcraft who attack gunboat with turrets lose shield fast, but once shield is down, it start to evade and run out of range, I took down shield of tons of bombers and fighters fast but I was always unable to do any hull damage at all, even when I cover bomber or capital ship from fighter fire, I am still unable to do any damage to enemy hull even with 1400 speed turrets ).
In gunboat fight 1 vs 1, turrets are the only guns fast enough to hit often enough to defeat enemy gunboat, that is why turrets are used so often, gunboat with cerberus can not take enemy gunboat shield in 1 vs 1 fight, and 2 gunboats with battle razor/pulse set up can not take out shield of 1 gunboat, all because of they low speed.
That is main reason why everyone go into primary turrets, reducing primary turrets speed will just make them less useful then cerberus and no one will use them, same with solaris.
As for gunboat missile, I found it great again gunboats and maybe caps, basically, even if gunboat missile can take out enemy fighter or bomber shield with 1 hit while you need 20 missiles to take out gunboat shield, they hit enemy gunboat so often that it let you down enemy gunboat shield faster and then do damage with primary turrets.
Again fighters or bombers missiles miss a lot, and why should you try to hit enemy subcraft with missile to take out it is shield if you can do it with normal turrets 4 times faster, the real problem is when subcraft have no shield, then he evade and get out of range before you do any damage at all.
Even with 1400 speed primary turrets what are good for defence again subs, they can not damage escaping/evading subcrafts hull, and reducing they speed to 1000 will make them miss not only subs but gunboats as well, making them useless.
Also, gunboat is not OP, it is just more survivable thanks to it is agility, but in exchange it lack in fire power, for example, light crazier with 2 battle razor can defeat fighters and bombers far more easy then turret boat or gunboat with BR/pulses, the reason, light cruiser agility and BR/cruiser primaries have almost the same speed, making it easy to use both of them.
Reducing speed of primary turrets will make them useless and without primary turrets gunboat as ship class will become useless and everyone will jump to cruisers what right now are far more powerful and effective then gunboats.