Some questions about the trader/pirate relationship

[Nautilus]

Hello,
First of all, I'm not a native speaker of english so please, be gentle with me.

I spent an entire night to read as many of the threads exposed by various players, especially those related to trader/pirate relationship. but I to must admit that I'm not able to understand if, in the following scenario, the pirate respect the rules or not!

I'm a trader, so I meet a lot of pirates until now. Some of them, impressed me literally, in a good way, even if at the end of an prolong discussion I left with my pocket a little easier. Unfortunately, this does not happen too often!

SCENARIO
I was near to the jump gate between New York and Colorado with my "Stork" filled with robotics, when a pirate (in a bomber) having Pirate ID, asked me to stop. From my experience so far, I learned that, in general, it is better to stop and try to negotiate with them, instead to run, especially if you're single, and you don't have escort. So... I complied. I welcomed, but his attitude was extremely aggressive. After the typical phrase "You must to pay or you will be dead!", started to shooting me (not with CD) in order to keep my shield down, even if my ship's engines were stopped. But this not bothering me! I understand why he did so. On the other hand, asked me to pay 30 mils. Then, I made a short calculation and even if that route had become not profitable, I accepted. But in all this time (about 20-30 seconds) he continued to shoot me. I asked him to stop because I will pay. My ship had already been damaged. He said: "You have 10 seconds to pay!". Under time pressure, I tried to transfer money from another account to can pay all that 30 millions. Also, seeing that he did not want to stop, I tried to keep the shield up by using all batteries and nanobots but without to open fire. It was too late, anyway. All it took less than 1 minute.
Then I understood that his intention was to kill me, from the beginning and tried somehow to hide it.

Now, I have a few questions:
1. There is a limit for the amount which a pirate can ask from a trader?
- by the term "limit" I understand an approximate percentage of the load from cargo.
2. In the above scenario, it is considered that trader was killed in a PvP death?
- take in consideration that trader has not open fire.
3. If a trader accept to pay, is allowed for pirate to continue firing?
- I suppose your answer will be "Yes" but I want to know exactly.

Thank you!
Joe

[Echo 7-7]

...
Now, I have a few questions:
1. There is a limit for the amount which a pirate can ask from a trader?
- by the term "limit" I understand an approximate percentage of the load from cargo.
2. In the above scenario, it is considered that trader was killed in a PvP death?
- take in consideration that trader has not open fire.
3. If a trader accept to pay, is allowed for pirate to continue firing?
- I suppose your answer will be "Yes" but I want to know exactly.

Thank you!
Joe

1) I can't remember the exact number but demanding 30 million for a load of Robotics is far too much.

2) Yes. Being killed by a player pirate attack counts as a PvP death.

3) If a Trader consents to paying the pirate, and does not make any obvious attempt to escape, then the pirate should not attack. A pirate has made a demand, and if you comply with that demand, then he cannot kill you. However, if the demand is unreasonable, that is heavily frowned upon and can be reported.

---

There was a sig here, once.

[Ursus]

1. There is a limit for the amount which a pirate can ask from a trader?
- by the term "limit" I understand an approximate percentage of the load from cargo.

There is no rule about it. The absence of a rule means its not against the rules, by definition. Admins puff their feathers sometimes, but simple logic says if its not against the rules then there's nothing to enforce, except you made the admins angry so here is some arbitrary punishment.

2. In the above scenario, it is considered that trader was killed in a PvP death?
- take in consideration that trader has not open fire.

Except for Connecticut system, any death while you are in combat with another player is counted as a PVP death. Doesnt matter if you are killed by an NPC or crash a planet or anything else, if you die in combat with another player then it is PVP death.

3. If a trader accept to pay, is allowed for pirate to continue firing?
- I suppose your answer will be "Yes" but I want to know exactly.

Rule 6.6 says "Aggressors are not allowed to destroy a trade vessel prior to issuing a demand, in system or local chat, and allowing sufficient time to respond. [...]" If you agreed to pay, he should have given you enough time to move the money. If it took an unreasonable amount of time for you to move the money, then he didnt break the rule. He may have just thought you were pulling his chain. Or maybe he didnt care.

If you have screen shots you can make a sanction report under 6.6 and see what the admins do about it. They may even act on the unreasonable demand part, assuming it wasnt one of them flying the pirate ship

---

Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[sindroms]

Funnily enough, there is no rule stating that the pirate cannot destroy the trader after the demand has been fulfilled. And many pirates, especially xenos, use that loop with admirable gusto. Making a samura IDed trader shoot their own cargo, only to smack them around and kill them afterwards.

---

--------------
PSA: If you have been having stutter/FPS lag on Disco where it does not run as smoothly as other games, please look at the fix here: https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...pid2306502
----------

[Jack_Henderson]

Funnily enough, there is no rule stating that the pirate cannot destroy the trader after the demand has been fulfilled. And many pirates, especially xenos, use that loop with admirable gusto.

Asses will always remain.... asses. No more comment necessary.
If screened correctly, I am pretty sure the sanction would stick. It's however not easy to screen, that's why people might get away with it.

Question 1:

30 million for a load of Robos is way out of what it should be.

=> Never consent to such crap. What the player did was pvp-abuse. Don't pay outrageous demands.

=> Take your time, roleplay nicely. Screen the entire conversation, screen his ID, screen his attack while you are talking, make sure you can provide a nice picture of the incident. After you blew up, log off, shrug, write your report.

After finishing and after having done your little part of making this a better place, look at the player list, see that the pirate has logged off, log on again and have fun.

=> Cannon mentioned that 1/3 of your cargo value is considered fine, but that's not a rule. In your case, it's more than 10 times the cargo value => report it

=> In the case of Robos, it can be that he was suspecting you of supplying a base. Embargos e.g. against illegal bases are often enforced by ridiculous claims, so the bomber can shoot you. He should have mentioned that, however, in his rp.

Question 2:

You are pvp dead in this system for 2h or until the pirate logs off. You can leave the systen if you respawn in it and cannot be attacked by him again.

Question 3:

He should not. And I am pretty sure he cannot, even though the rules state "cannot destroy trader prior to demand". I guess the "cannot destroy after demand has been met" has not made it in to not grant the trader automatic immunity. I know traders who mocked the pirate while flying away, insulted him, etc... and thus gave him a rp reason to shoot again.

I've been flying mainly transports for almost 3 years. I have yet to meet someone who shoots a rping trader after a demand has been met. Perhaps I should add that I do not fly through Liberty, though, and thus avoid most weird things automatically.

---

+ IMG| DISCORD: https://discord.gg/TWrGWjp
+ IMG| IS RECRUITING: Click to find out more!

[Echo 7-7]

Addendum;

With regards to acceptable piracy demands:

...
It depends on the situation and as always will be considered on a case by case basis. A good guideline is no more than 1/3 the value of the cargo.
...

Funnily enough, there is no rule stating that the pirate cannot destroy the trader after the demand has been fulfilled. And many pirates, especially xenos, use that loop with admirable gusto. Making a samura IDed trader shoot their own cargo, only to smack them around and kill them afterwards.

The Xenos ID is not the same as the generic Pirate ID. The engagement conditions on the Pirate ID only permit an attack on the conditions that the demand is not met. In contrast, the Xeno pilot can separately demand cargo and attack a Samura ship because a Samura vessel is a combat target (specifically for the Xenos ID) regardless of whether or not a demand for cargo was made.

---

There was a sig here, once.

[Karst]

Most of what can be said on the matter already has been said, but regarding this specifically:

3. If a trader accept to pay, is allowed for pirate to continue firing?
- I suppose your answer will be "Yes" but I want to know exactly.

He may not destroy you until you've been given sufficient time to pay and haven't, but he may certainly continue firing.

Roughing up a trader a bit is a pirate's way of showing we're serious, if I pirate someone and I'm not sure yet if they'll pay, I'll drop some screamers in their face to help them decide.

Edit: Also, have a look at this thread

---

[Nautilus]

Thanks all for answers. I think now I understand how things are.
I'm still a little disappointed that there is no clear rule against ridiculous demands. 1/3 of my cargo (like Canon recommended) should be ok but still is not a mandatory rule!
As trader, sometimes, I wonder if worth to get back in the game, when I meet this kind of pirates. Anyway, I will take in consideration all your advices. But sometimes what's supposed to be fun (is still a game, after all, right?) is turned into disgust.
Anyway, I will use my fraps from now on. There are too many pirates that deserve to be reported and yes, I will do it if will be necessary.
About Rule 6.6 and [...] allowing sufficient time to respond[...]: there are pirates who consider 10 seconds is enough for a trader to do the payment. I met many pirates which, after they asked me to stop, they said: "5 mils in 10 seconds or you will die!" and begin to countdown... Usually, I refuse to pay such kind of pirates. This is no more a RP, in my opinion.

Edit: Also, have a look at this thread

- Thanks for link! Is very useful also...

L.E.// Like I see, Xenos are the most ruthless. I should look for a company specializing in security.

[Karst]

About Rule 6.6 and [...] allowing sufficient time to respond[...]: there are pirates who consider 10 seconds is enough for a trader to do the payment. I met many pirates which, after they asked me to stop, they said: "5 mils in 10 seconds or you will die!" and begin to countdown... Usually, I refuse to pay such kind of pirates. This is no more a RP, in my opinion.

I'm pretty certain most people will agree that 10 seconds is NOT sufficient time to respond. If someone tells you that and then blasts you, record it and file a sanction report. Lolwut insta-engage pirates should not be tolerated.

---

[Jack_Henderson]

L.E.// Like I see, Xenos are the most ruthless. I should look for a company specializing in security.

Don't fly in Liberty.
You will discover a much less lolwutty game.
Try it.

Use NY and surrounding systems for meaningless pews, and avoid it on your trader.

---

+ IMG| DISCORD: https://discord.gg/TWrGWjp
+ IMG| IS RECRUITING: Click to find out more!