Discovery 4.87 Balance "Leak of the Day" Thread

[Syrus]

SNAC is mounted on the right wing. Definatly not the best position for a SNAC tbh.

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[aerelm]

i see that thruster is under right wing, and mines under left

Nope, SN's under the right wing and CD's under the left one. Both are CD/T hardpoints.

SNAC is mounted on the right wing. Definatly not the best position for a SNAC tbh.

That's still closer to the center of the mass than the torp slots on Praetorian and a few other bombers.

[aerelm]

 

 

[Govedo13]

Sunrail efficiency is 3,85 Rheinland Civilian efficiency is 4,89
Sunrail DPS is 2393,7 Rheinland Civilian DPS is 2181,6

Even with less range, 200 less DPS , smaller projective lifetime and less accuracy the faction gun is a way worse then the civilian one. As you said more then 400 m range is not needed in 95% of the cases.


Same story here:

Buckshot is 3,92 Liberty civilian efficiency is 5
Buckshot DPS is 2352 Liberty civilian DPS is 2180
172 DPS more, brutal efficiency difference that cannot be compensated with the DPS difference and 50m/s more speed.
One should be idiot to take Buckshot over the Liberty Civ gun. Also to note here that the Liberty Civ gun comes with simular efficiency like the "better" BHG gun Reaver: DPS is 2240 Efficiency : 5,38
So if 8,33s does not suit my PvP style I need to be nerfed with Buckshot or to use better Liberty Civilian gun but with nerf as bounty hunter while the pirat that I am going to pew would have the better 4.0 gun without nerf, making the Buckshot useless, and making the BHG faction effectively with one faction gun instead of 2.

I dunno what the rest think but I personally does not think that the civilian stuff should be that good. I am comparing the stats only because Breton ship would be in even worse position receiving nerf for the rheinland gun compared with some generic pirat for example. The most simple way to fix it is to add 10% additional stats bonus for all faction guns compared with the civilians at the same type,refire, energy usage and dps.
Civilian guns should be second grade guns, generic IDs got no restrictions, no zoi they should pay with something for this.

This is not good. A way better would be to keep the faction guns more efficient at less DPS like it was in the server in the last years. The people that want worse efficiency and high bust damage DPS can take codes. In group fights efficiency and speed is so more important then DPS, same story in fighters vs bigger ships.

I got the idea from Krakens and Buckshots- one of the faction guns should be ok, the other should be totally useless compared to the ok faction gun but why it should be useless compared with the civilian guns?

If I compare the rest of the civilian guns with the worse of the two faction guns, civilians would be better. As result you effectively remove the bonus for factions to have 2 guns and different setups.
None would use Krakens, Sunrails,Buckshots if he can use Wyrms, Splitters and Reavers. Civilians would just use the better civilian gun instead taking faction gun with nerf. Bigger factions should have the luxury to have 2 useful guns, it is nice bonus that makes different type of PvPers to join them.
Is this not nerfing all factions that have 2 faction guns? Why?

Such guns would make the server more factionless and more faceless full with generic pirats and generic freelancers with unknown affiliation. As we all know such people does not contribute to the RP environment much, they are around to pew stuff with the best tech possible, giving them such toys would make the faction situation overall worse.
Faceless best pew tech oriented server leads to loss of activity, people come over and over again in the server not because the game is so great or because the balance is so great but because people are social beings that stick together in factions in our case.

And as final:
If you find unjustified that hessians have one gun only then better make second hessian gun instead of nerfing all 2-gun factions k?

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€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[belarusich]

About CD: now it will be not standard missile launcher from vanilla?

About these guns^: I thought Sunrails are 4.00. And about "unaffiliated freelancers": they cant use many ships... Like Templar, Guardian, Wraith, etc.

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http://i.imgur.com/kUwDiuk.jpg
more than 1 kill per minute in shooter is cheating now :\

Signature must not be larger than 700x250 pixels
Codes from your picture have been removed.
~ Dim

[SeaFalcon]

Balancing is one thing.
Messing things up, by changing as much as possible is another.

"I won't do anything after this mod anyway so someone else can clean up "

It's funny to watch never the less.

[belarusich]

And as final:
If you find unjustified that hessians have one gun only then better make second hessian gun instead of nerfing all 2-gun factions k?

Nerfing? What about you are now eh?..

Just now realized... beer is bad

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http://i.imgur.com/kUwDiuk.jpg
more than 1 kill per minute in shooter is cheating now :\

Signature must not be larger than 700x250 pixels
Codes from your picture have been removed.
~ Dim

[aerelm]

Balancing is one thing.
Messing things up, by changing as much as possible is another.

Jumping into conclusions without knowing the big picture is also something else.

Fighter guns are going through a complete overhaul within the first 4 updates of the new mod. None of the stats making it into the initial release are the intended final stats. You can either look at it as a mess up or a filtering process which takes the guns toward their intended stats step by step in order to pinpoint and fix their possible flaws before actually being implemented, instead of tossing in all the final stats right away without knowing the possible outcome.

Also, it's completely understandable - People don't like change, especially not those who're already too used to the current system, and there's no denying it, final snub balance in 4.87 is going to be completely different compared to how it used to be up until now, and it's not gonna be a clean cut until the final intended stats are implemented. This divides people into two main groups, one group who just start complaining before they've even tried the guns ingame, and another group who wait until they've used the guns long enough ingame to have a solid enough insight which they can use to offer constructive criticism.

Nonetheless, it's always a pleasure to read complaints about things people don't even know about yet.

P.S: Discovery has gone through the same thing with its every single version. People just don't know about it because it used to be handled by closed alpha releases played by a test team, however, as it proved to be inefficient especially in the past two versions and the final outcome turned out to be nothing but delaying the public release, it was decided to involve the community in the testing process. So technically speaking, the first couple of 4.87 releases are going to be the alpha version and not the beta. Being somewhat of a labrat while playing an alpha version is unfortunately inevitable.

[Govedo13]

In general even this is not the final stats. I see tendency in the said balancing of second faction guns and civilian guns.
It does not matter much if they got small face-lift changes in the process- +/- 0,2 efficiency or +/- 50 100 DPS
It is nice to make some statements first like should civilian guns be better or at the same level as faction guns?
Should the second faction gun suck compared to the first one and similar refire/speed ones?
Where you draw the line between faction and civilian stuff? What nerfs would receive factions for using civilian stuff if the civilian stuff is better or at the same level as the faction stuff?

Also it is bright idea to ask the faction leaders before screwing one of their guns, they might want at least to tell you what one to screw and what one to keep decent if the balance team decided to screw one of them for some unknown to the public reason.
My experience shows that the factions does not like much to nerf their gear in that way without asking them- the bretons for instance wanted the Sunrail change a lot and made big topic around it- I bet they wont be happy if they compare their faction gun with rheinland civilian one.

From my PoV if I am genric ID and I am provided with so many different decent civilian guns on all possible speeds and refires combined with vast ship choice of fine ships and unlimited ZoI/Targets what motivates me to join faction X?
The limited ships that might not suit my PvP style? The one mega nerfed useless faction gun?
You should ask yourself this questions before even starting to make some numbers, and much before presenting the numbers to the public in this topic.

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€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[aerelm]

To explain the general idea to you, Govedo, here's how the final stats gonna work:

Civilian guns will have the lowest damage of their refire, while maintaining the highest efficiency. They are supposed to be a valid alternative to faction guns for whoever preferring efficiency over damage output, but still a subpar choice for those who prefer damage output over efficiency.

Factions with two lines of guns will have one gun with high damage and low efficiency, and another gun with low damage and high efficiency. This will open up the choices for different styles, so people would get to pick between their two lines of guns depending on how they'd like to fly.

Class 8 guns* will be overhauled and will no longer be the "little brother of cl9 guns", but on the same level as their cl9 counterpart with altered stats. This would allow factions with a single gun line to also have the ability to pick between firepower or efficiency, but with less variety compared to the factions with two gun lines.

Class 7 guns* will be revamped and will be exclusive to light fighters, and will be turned into burst guns. Light fighters using the same guns as VHFs has been causing problems similar to what we had back when bombers had access to VHF guns. This is not a nerf, but more of a performance improvement for light fighters, as with their new guns the stats can be adjusted specific to LF needs without having to worry about them being abused on VHFs. And Corsairs are getting a new shotgun-like hullbuster energy torpedo*. multiple projectiles firing at the same time with a high spread which'd make it accurate only at short range.
With that in mind, everything included in the initial release is somewhat of a "sample" of how the intended stats are going to be. The intention is to try out the different variations to see how each would work out ingame, and then adjust the final stats accordingly. Additionally, the large difference you see in efficiencies and energy usage of different guns is because their EPS is closer to their final stats than their DPS. The intended DPS for higher-end fighter guns was supposed to be much larger, but we realized that might be a bit excessive, so the DPS range for initial release was toned down to see how that works out and how much can it be improved without making them more effective than intended.

One way or another, the gun efficiencies will not be staying the same for the final release. Either their DPS will be adjusted as intended, or their EPS will be leveled.

P.S: One major point you're missing about civilian guns is their intended tech nerf. Only house corporations will be able to use those guns at 100%. Every other faction belonging to that house would have to use it on 90%, and generic IDs would have a 75% cell to those guns. That means simply comparing their efficiency based on their infocard stats is insufficient when discussing their availability and its effect on different IDs.

* These changes are not implemented into the initial release and will be added in one of the updates.