Bringing Logic into Disco : Structural Load Transfer on Bases

[nOmnomnOm]

WARNING: IF YOU WANT TO LIVE IN THE WORLD OF SCI-FI FANTASY THEN DONT READ THIS THREAD. K?
NOTE: THIS IS NOT A QQ THREAD TOWARDS DEV TEAM CONCERNING BASES OR BLAH BLAH...

Note: Im a architectural student studying this stuff... so yeah.

Before I begin the discussion I would like to put out a few assumptions that I made prior to posting this and to whom I am talking about. The following are a list of assumptions:

1. Artificial gravity on stations exist which makes it possible for people to actually walk and perform correctly on stations.
2. People know generally how loads are transferred.... or can quickly learn via me explaining.

Assuming those two points are correct, I will first talk about the issues and what the game fails at doing/showing concerning any base in general in game. I will then focus on the design of PoBs since that is the topic I want to get at in the end.

So what is load transfer in buildings and construction?
Basically there are two different types of loading you have to consider when creating a structural design. Dead Load and Live Load. Dead load is to do with the force coming from the structure itself. It can be the weight of the members, the concrete, etc. The live load is to do with the loads that can be changed. For example: People, furniture, wind, snow, rain, etc. With all this in mind, a general formula for this is 1.25D + 1.5L. (ofc there is more formulas and stuff like that but this is the extreme basics.This formula shows how much these loads are important as they are factored a bit more for safety)

In any case these loads have to travel somewhere and here on earth 99% of the time (1% if i dunno something) it is to the ground. The ground use force that acts in the opposite direction which creates equilibrium if the forces can be equal or the resistance is greater than the actual load. This results in the building not falling apart. Get my drift?

Now sure there are planes and all that and spaceships but they are quite compact. The huge spaceships in sci-fi are just no. No plz. The enterprise is bad.

Here are some pictures of how load transfer works:

https://sites.google.com/site/frenchyae3...ilding.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-d22MhEqLu9E/U2...com%5D.png
http://www.makingthemodernworld.org.uk/l....IL.24.gif
https://engineeringrome.wikispaces.com/f...0Domes.png


Now that we have very basic knowledge, lets get to the topic.

In order for a station to work it would need either the use of compartmentalization or columns... which there is nothing to make a force to react to it.... unless you make like a huge thick slab to counter it. So domes and arches I have no idea how they work. Sorry zoners. Your bio-domes are prooooably wrong. It is just a huge force acting down PLUS the live load of plants PLUS the dead load of the earth that they grow in... PLUS water... Eh... You would need a large slab to pull that off and that will crack. Because we assume gravity.


But hey is there a way for there to be gravity and when the load goes to a section that has no gravity it dissipates? Yeah I have no idea. No idea at all.

So what is the maximum span then of beams? It wont be that far actually. 10 meters? 15? trusses will work but... they need that counter force.

The only solution would be I think to make small compartments and stick them together... just like PoBs kinda... core 1. the only problem is those sticks attached to them. they can easily break off due to moment. And also they are in the wrong place too! Beams/trusses located there would have to be embedded into the structural skeleton. This would create thermal bridging into the structure AND YOU DONT WANT ANY THERMAL BRIDGING IN SPACE! Basically cold gets in.


So really we should assume that PoBs and other bases are just 3D logos of an actual hypothetical base. What I am going to attmept to do is make a design that will WORK.

On other topics there is the issue of how the base will work off grid and the docking procedure and stuff like that... but loading is the main issue here because it influences the form and spatial organization of the base.

So yeah.... leave your comments below and please only constructive ones.
Get it? Constructive?
Ba dum CCCccccccc

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[Omicron]

I dont understand a single thing you just typed.

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[Tachyon]

Although I am lacking subject-specific English here for sure, I believe I understood the problem you wanted to bring up:

In Layman's terms the described problem has to do with the structural stability of space stations in Freelancer.

Assuming artificial gravity acts upon the structure itself (i.e. Biodome), instead of only what is within the structure (Trees, water etc.), that particular structure would collapse under its own weight.

In the biodome's case, not only could the dome itself collapse - The floor/ground would also tear up similar to a big wooden plate when you put too much weight on it in the middle, because there is nothing that plate is resting on (think of a table that is too weak for what's on it).

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[Pancakes]

Space construction and earthly one is very different. Things like the spinning of the station are matters you should take into consideration, as well as other outside forces.

I can sum it up easily with a - most of the objects in Freelancer are physically impossible. That much is true. Also the assumption of gravity, symmetry and a-symmetry are things to consider for various reasons like moment of inertia (biggest one I guess, half the structures in freelancer should get torn apart the moment they spin even just slightly, would make it easy on terrorists, don't you think?), and how artificial gravity on the stations is regarded as if it's just derived downwards, instead of towards the center, making the whole construction style non-sense with the bigger stations (those that race with the small planetoids).

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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

[Fluffyball]

Before we talk about any logic in Discovery:

LIBERTY
Number of Liberty Dreadnought 103
Number of Liberty Carrier 98
Number of Liberty Battlecruiser 143

Thank you.

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User was banned for: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=138636
Time left: (Permanent)

[Alestone]

This is pure, Paramount style, sci-fi techno-babble weaseling, but here goes.

Using Gravity Field Stabilizers (a POB commodity), the energy of the load is syphoned away and converted into a useable form and fed into the station's storage systems. Should the load change beyond the capacity of the installed system, of the system fail, BAD THINGS will happen.

I realize that it technically answers nothing, but that object exists in the game. Presumably, it is the foundation of the business, and it is theoretically possible to harvest the energy, since, like any application of Newton's Third Law, the reaction doesn't care how it is equalized, only that the effect actually occurs.

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Alestone Enterprises

The Power To Get You There!

[Highland Laddie]

Does this also assume that all gravity fields are automatically set to Earth normal? What if they are set to low enough that certain structures aren't in danger of collapsing due to load distribution? I'm not an engineer, so not sure if that makes total sense, but it's fantasy so...now I'm a genius.

[nOmnomnOm]

I dont understand a single thing you just typed.

I forgot to assume that you wouldnt be able to undserstand.
Maybe my dumb english speak will making things easier for you: Building no work becasue nothing to support weight. Base rip appart. Too big to work. No.... (oh I'm sorry but I do hope you know this word) equilibrium.


And Yes Toris, you can play the mission impossible theme song while reading becasue disco is just that when it comes to logic and how things really work. That is OK though. It is just a representation of space. A logo of it. A symbol.

@Pancakes

Not even when they spin. They would snap the instant you turn on artificial gravity becasue even the proportions of lets say the PoB's beams that connect the boxes in Core 1 wouldn't be enough. It would snap or if not then yeah when they spin they would be torn apart.

And in terms of what is up and what is down... Once you add gravity then you introduce acceleration. They are in vector form so that would have a direction attached to the number. That direction would indicate what is up and what is down.

@Twaddle

If there would be at least something that would balance it then yeah, it would work. It just needs to have all forces equal to 0.


@Highland_Laddie

Ah I see what you did there... But I am going to assume that it is similar to what is here on earth because... well... I'd like to go to pour a drink properly in my RP bar

But that does bring up a point though. Suppose you would decrease gravity. That would mean the forces applied downwards would decrease. If that happens then it would only need to go lower than the forces applied upwards from the base materials in order to counter it.

But that leads me to the scenario again of compartmentalization. If you were to make smaller units that can hold themselves together and have the load dissipate and distribute evenly on the bottom... then that would mean it would be able to hold. If you were to then link them together and make the links also strong enough then that would work too. A way to visualize this would be making boxes that can hold themselves up and then attaching them together. Then remove the walls that are not needed for larger areas to be created inside. I suppose that would work.... maybe. The only problem is what is the maximum size that I could make? And I would go back to saying probably 15 meters wide and ... i dont know...6 meters high? Depends also how thick the walls are of the box.
Actually not even. maybe 10 x 10 and have the walls thick and the base thicker?

[Highland Laddie]

@Highland_Laddie

Ah I see what you did there... But I am going to assume that it is similar to what is here on earth because... well... I'd like to go to pour a drink properly in my RP bar

But that does bring up a point though. Suppose you would decrease gravity. That would mean the forces applied downwards would decrease. If that happens then it would only need to go lower than the forces applied upwards from the base materials in order to counter it.

But that leads me to the scenario again of compartmentalization. If you were to make smaller units that can hold themselves together and have the load dissipate and distribute evenly on the bottom... then that would mean it would be able to hold. If you were to then link them together and make the links also strong enough then that would work too. A way to visualize this would be making boxes that can hold themselves up and then attaching them together. Then remove the walls that are not needed for larger areas to be created inside. I suppose that would work.... maybe. The only problem is what is the maximum size that I could make? And I would go back to saying probably 15 meters wide and ... i dont know...6 meters high? Depends also how thick the walls are of the box.
Actually not even. maybe 10 x 10 and have the walls thick and the base thicker?

Precisely...localized gravitational focus. If you have gravitational generators, why not be able to customize them per building/room/location that you choose? Thus, on a structure like a biodome, you could have basically just enough gravity to ensure that the water is absorbed properly into the plant root systems, whereas in other areas where there is more structural support, you could have higher gravity (like a base bar with people who don't want to float everywhere).

Another thing to consider, in this fictional world of "super alloys" and science fiction materials, we're not necessarily assuming that all these fancy space stations are just being built out of rebar and A36 structural steels, which have relatively weak tensile strengths. It's possible that whatever materials are being used provide better structural support than what we general use here planetside in the real world.

[Tachyon]

So basically you're saying we should ignore everything we know and can work with at the moment and rely solely on hypothetically existing materials and technologies ?

Then what's the point of this thread.

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