(12-02-2015, 08:57 PM)Freedom Phantom Wrote: do I need to copy-paste some intelligent swear-filter bypassers for some quick laughs while praying to the skygods of space and time for cw to be back
because i'll do it
Or we can wait for another Junker/IMG/Gallia hate thread to start and then go back to normal because zoner nothing matters anyways
(12-02-2015, 09:32 PM)Swallow Wrote: So, did we find out why zoners exist?
I wanted to know why Zoners were not politically squished for certain things, such as sheltering bad guys - because, unlike Junkers, they have their bases in a pretty easily reachable places for every fleet, if in border space (Kepler, Omega-3, and so on).
Thread turned into 99% of Zoner drama, and I lost any interest into that thread as soon as it happened.
- Andrew Ryan (Bioshock)
did not like the rules and laws of the land - went out into undiscovered territory to claim a piece of land that was unclaimed. Set up his own society and rules - and ... incidentally - hardly considered a pacifist or a tree hugger
- Babylon 5 .. actually called a freeport
neutral - allowing everyone to trade.. also armed to the teeth - forging many alliances to defend against aggression. also not quite the pacifists
no idea where the belief comes from that zoners need to be on the barrel end of a gun by default. - While it is true that they are kind of civilians ... they are that sort of civilians that ventures out to conquer new lands - usually with a big stick. The original lore does not suggest them to be peaceloving at all - but preferring diplomacy over warfare (those that prefer warfare over diplomacy must be fox news watchers) - but it is never said that they shy away from armed combat. it is said that they are not very good at it ... in general (compared to a much more war centric society like corsairs) but even so - it does not mean that they cannot be gun nuts and psychos.
other than that - yea - they are story relevant fillers to allow trent to have docking havens between missions - because their reputation doesn t change when he jumps factions.
I think I know the difference between Zoner and Freelancer. Freelancers are hireguns, open for all possible jobs available, both inside and outside space. And Zoners? They just want not to be bothered by anyone, doing their job in a relative peace - with nobody caring about them. They aren't even an organization.
Somehow it still feels like Freelancers became "hireguns" more after Mercenary ID got merged into theirs, while despite Zoner RP being mainly about wishing to be left alone it still doesn't seem to forbid working for others, rather encourages putting effort into earning one's own neutrality, making me still look at certain Zoner ID restrictions as more balance solutions (like countering the availability of capital vessels with severe combat restrictions) than roleplay (or loreplay) elements specific for the "faction".
EDIT: Jinx' description reminds me more of pioneers.
(12-02-2015, 02:42 PM)Thyrzul Wrote: I was hoping that pointing out an example I find to suit Zoner RP best would also be seen as a subtle suggestion on which direction to improve general Zoner Roleplay, you know, as a possible fix to "supposed current problem with zoner rp".
There's not so much a problem (unless you count the fact that there's not much to do on the actual ID courtesy of heavy nerfage) with the Zoners as there is with the attitude of people with problems of there being a Zoner faction in the game with a complete shipline.
(12-02-2015, 02:45 PM)FluffReborn Wrote: As an OP, I request closing this thread or simply erase posts with ooRP rage and off-topic things.
You ever going to respond to those posts which addressed your point? Or just ignore them?
(12-02-2015, 02:50 PM)Lythrilux Wrote:
(12-02-2015, 12:36 PM)n00bl3t Wrote:
(12-02-2015, 09:30 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: Would you rather have it that I declare Sirius wide Zoner Jihad? Because many times I've come very close due to the way diplomacy has progressed (in the vein bad of bad examples I mentioned earlier). I'm under no obligation to heed the ham-fisted demands of Zoners, as much as you might believe I need to :}
And I mean it's not just me who thinks CW are the best attempt at Zoners we've had in the past several years. Ask most people and they'll think the same. Even if you barely remember who he was, he still had a better grip on Zoner RP than you do. I think TAZ are alright but CW were better at hitting the nail on the head. OSI... doesn't really seem that Zonery.
If you could, you would. Roleplay about supply lines means nothing to someone who wants to powergame out of their faction limitations with a trade convoy screenshot here and there.
Last I checked, Zoners sit still and generally do nothing much until someone brings a fight in and then someone else like the Core comes and makes demands. Rebuffing a demand is not a demand.
Yeah, I don't know much about Zoner RP or lore. (Is anyone else having a giggle at this?)
And you're displaying the attributes of the problem. Core is not Order (or Corsairs etc.). We do not need to beg Zoners for supplies and get extremely worried when those supply lines are threatened because our diplomacy hasn't limited us to a very small pool of potential suppliers. And even on the subject on screenshot there's more roleplay to support being supplied from non-zoners than there is from Zoners (shout out to our Junker allies).
As sone constructive critism perhaps Zoners should start treating factions on a case by case basis, rather than blindly charging in with a stock fr5 template.
Indeed Zoners do sit still sometimes, but often they try to force themselves into environmental politics that do not concern them as much as they'd think - nor is their influence or relevance as big as their "I'M A ZONER FEAR ME" mindset.
Yeah. House corporations want to supply the BHG in the edgeworlds instead of their own government or themselves, thereby denying them a stake of the resources. That makes a lot of sense.
Zoners are unlikely to want to know you when you demand compliance from them and shoot up their base. The visual aspects of the ships are the only difference between how you operate the core and nomad NPCs.
If it isn't in your RP to cooperate, you're not going to get cooperation.
I doubt Zoners care about BHG unless they're powergaming a way to take over Freeport 11 or hanging around a Freeport looking for drama.
The key difference with the Core to other Edge Worlds faction is that they do not have the hostile diplomacy that prevents them from conducting trade with houses and corporations. They do not need a middle man like the Order does with Zoners. For a very long time, back in the earlier days, (BHG) Core had a direct link from Rho/56 to the Houses (in the form of Halle). On top of other factions delivering supplies, they would also fetch their own supplies via APM as well (albeit less than the external suppliers). And recently Rho has connected with Rheinland once again via Luneburg. Their reason for supplying the Core is either sympathetic (the whole "we're the true protectors of humanity!" propaganda) or because they're getting paid either in credits or in research materials and technology.
If Zoners are reluctant to get acquainted then I don't mind. The Core RP is to oppress, under the guise of protection. They're not supposed to be nice guys under all that propaganda. Having genuine political conversations over how the Core acts with Zoners is quite an interesting experience (kudos Karst) although unfortunately rare. This infocard sums things up:
515049(i) Wrote:The Core is an indirect enemy of Zoners such as me. They are bent on bringing regulation to our home in total freedom, despite us leaving the houses for their rules in the first place. We do not want their laws, taxes and oppression. Many of us will not admit it and none of us could actually do something about it. The Core is an organised military and the Zoners are not even united by definition.
My gripe stems from that - rather than pursuing logical RP and diplomacy - Zoners jump straight to the FR5 wagon and then find themselves very confused and prone to crying when, not just Core, factions don't play along and start to ready their guns. Just because you lack a rephack in your diplomacy sheet does not necessarily mean that faction inherently owes you anything. It's the same case with piracy as well. Your neutrality won't give you an auto-shield against a credit/cargo demand. If an individual Freelancer or something adheres to FR5 threats that may be fair enough because they are simply an individual. If an entire faction doesn't then don't act so surprised, although as I said it may differ on a case by case basis. Some factions may be closer to you than others but even then it doesn't necessarily give the Zoners more gravity than the other faction.
I forgot about that "hey I made my own trade faction so we aren't limited by supply routes any more" ploy.
Whilst in the same breath you deride on other faction's trying to free themselves of their own limitations with such tactics.
That's the definition of hypocritical.
I'm curious as to what the developer opinion is on the supposed 6th house popping up in the Omicrons with the Core. Or is that just your own thing?
No-one mentioned anything about neutrality and piracy so I can only assume you're trying hard for poisoning the well. Don't think I said Core owes Zoners anything either, so I guess that's a straw man.
As for cooperation, you were the one praising CW for theirs. I just suggested a way you might be able to actually cooperate better with Zoner factions in future.
Now, back to topic.
The major problem, is that people think of Zoners as space pacifists and not space libertarians. The difference is that one can and will shoot you.
People also confuse Zoners trading materials in trade ships with hardened pilots with experience in the edge worlds capable of holding their own. Staff on Ames Research Station simply aren't the same as residents on Freeport 11.
Quote:The major problem, is that people think of Zoners as space pacifists and not space libertarians. The difference is that one can and will shoot you.
I think the other problem is that ID doesn't allow them to do so, I mean, they aren't even allowed to enforce Zoner laws around the Freeports, according to the ID. They can only attack in self-defence of oneself, base and other Zoners. (I think the very same problem touches GMG ID, which doesn't have line about violating the GMG law - instead, they have line about the contraband.)
Or, that's what EXACTLY "defending an allied bases" line is?