It seems to me that there is, and has been for some time, a degree of resentment towards the Liberty Navy (both official and indies - and often from one to the other.) It's something rather unlike anything I've seen in other factions (although in that regard, my experience is rather limited).
It may simply be due to the fact that Liberty is the most active area in the game. It may not. Either way, as someone who flies both official and indie Navy ships, the atmosphere between groups can be downright depressing at times.
I'm not here to point fingers at individuals, and I'd ask that you don't either, rather to ask how we can improve. What would you like to see from Navy ships compared to what you see now? If you're an indie, how has your experience with the [LN] been? Should we be more involved, or is that the problem?
To clarify, I'm asking this purely as an individual. I haven't got authority over the [LN] or anything like that, but I would like to hear what we could do to patch things up a bit and how, as a single pilot, I could improve.
The truth is that both sides sux.
There are bunch of retarded LN Indies, so as result the officials act retarded towards non-so retarded normal Indies that are not in their skype channel.
I have seen a lot of LN officials attentionally not acting properly towards a situation in order to have more PvP options after the nub in PvP indie die. LN officials do act according principles of fair fights based on the numbers disregarding the skill level of the participants.
In general they would leave Indie to be raped by the enemy instead of helping him with bots or attacking if they have equal numbers.
From one side this policy is nice and fair, somekind of gentleman agreement,however on the other side it is OORP and plain stupid unless the said Indie agrees to this policy. It fits more Conn then the server realities since the said enemies wont act in the same manner and would gank instead. I personally does not mind, I can dodge and go to dock at the base but most of the new players does not like not to be helped and be raped in the name of some principles that they does not share.
For me personally the best thing is to fly as bounty hunter in Liberty if you want to be on the lawful side and prefer to be lone wolf.
In general the best fix for the situation is small death penalty for all kind of ships.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
I wanna say I met some top-notch [LN] and LN indies both in terms of rp and in terms of nice attitude.
But [LN] rp can sort of distance indies - sometimes it is very closed (it's no coincidence that it is [LN] that is the only faction in recent times to reserve an entire fairly populated system for closed roleplay), and the :-{ nomad hoo-hah just serve to create more division. Sometimes the direction the RP is taken in is too self-serving and does not have the greater good in mind at all.
Also I suppose some indies are frustrated by being newbies and don't understand why official faction players don't jump in when they are about to get killed by an overwhelming enemy force. Perhaps throw regular training sessions in Virginia to teach indies about discipline and fleet combat and for people to get to know each other better.
The intense nature of Liberty have a huge effect too. Every newbie wants a capital ship there, or a pirate there etc. etc. There's a lot of player hostility from all sides, lawful and unlawful, and that of course puts [LN] and LN players under a lot more pressure than most other players.
Well, it's been a while since I've flown a Navy indie ship, but I remember the official faction giving few to no craps about indies (usually). Like, seriously, ignoring them. Unless, of course, they needed the indie caps to repel a RoflNC invasion. Then they were kinda like "yeah, we kinda need you, move over here, like, now". But apart from that, the officials never really cared. And I really rarely see them online, unless there is a group of tagged outlaws (CFH-, Torpedoes, or who ever) online. Then they seem to log in, kill, log out.
(01-20-2013, 11:06 AM)Anaximander Wrote: Perhaps throw regular training sessions in Virginia to teach indies about discipline and fleet combat and for people to get to know each other better.
I guess they done this many times,also together with the said skype channel.
However it is not about training but about values and understanding of the game.
From RP PoV the fleet combat does not mean when you have 3 fighters only one to fight the enemy fighter right?
I guess the cure is to explain this gentleman agreements and this kind of policy OORPly somewhere in faction description together with in-game explanation because it makes no logic in RP and hence the indies think that officials are lolwuts when the officials think that indies are lolwuts.
For example there is no such problem in Bretonia where the locals gank you anyway with all forces presented.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
I hadn't heard about the system reservation, when/whereabouts did that happen? It certainly does seem odd. In my experience, we've tried to run RP events with the intention of getting people involved. However, I can see where you're coming from regarding the nomad RP. While there was a fair bit of promotion of that event (and encouragement to get involved) within the [LN], I'm not sure how much of it extended outside the faction. I'm aware of one thread in the communications channel alluding to the nomads.
As Govedo said, the training idea has been tried on a few occasions in the past, but eventually waned due to a lack of interest from one side or the other. I've got no objection to giving it another shot if there's sufficient interest, mind. Once again though, this is just me, not the [LN] as a whole, so I'd need to run it past Joe and Co first.
Toaster
(01-20-2013, 11:09 AM)Toaster Wrote: ...I remember the official faction giving few to no craps about indies (usually). Like, seriously, ignoring them. Unless, of course, they needed the indie caps to repel a RoflNC invasion. Then they were kinda like "yeah, we kinda need you, move over here, like, now". But apart from that, the officials never really cared. And I really rarely see them online, unless there is a group of tagged outlaws (CFH-, Torpedoes, or who ever) online. Then they seem to log in, kill, log out.
Edit: This make any sense at all to anyone?
Also, purely my own experience.
I've certainly been guilty of this a few times. In my experience the problem arises when there's a relatively small number of [LN] players online. A lot of lawfuls feel the need to alert me to most everything going on, even when there's little we're directly capable of doing. For instance, I frequently get requests for help in New York while I'm on my [LN] tagged transport running about in Bretonia, and on one occasion a group of faction players logging in got hit by about six calls before we could finish forming the group!
With so many calls for assistance, it gets very easy for us to ignore them. It's not necessarily right, but it does happen. Perhaps some of the training in fleet combat Govedo mentioned would be helpful. There's not always a requirement for an [LN] ship to organise a fleet, for instance, and often there's indies that would be just as capable of doing so, given the chance.
Govedo
(01-20-2013, 11:13 AM)Govedo13 Wrote: I guess the cure is to explain this gentleman agreements and this kind of policy OORPly somewhere in faction description together with in-game explanation because it makes no logic in RP and hence the indies think that officials are lolwuts when the officials think that indies are lolwuts.
For example there is no such problem in Bretonia where the locals gank you anyway with all forces presented.
I've seen people that adhere to both sides of the gank philosophy. Personally, I try to keep even numbers in a fighter brawl, but capital ships'll end up against whatever's in the area (within reason). Owing to their size and weapons, I can't (in-RP) justify not using whatever forces we've got available, if only for intimidation value.
Generally it falls to whoever's flying on the day to explain what they're doing, but I'll be sure to explain it more thoroughly when I do so in future.
Thanks for the feedback so far, it's much appreciated.
It can be rather hard to get accepted by the official factions as an Indie or unofficial. That kind of elitist attitude has been around for a long time, and the official/indy argument is an old one.
I think a lot of the problem is really down to a lot of the Liberty Navy Indie pilots not knowing what they should know, and more to the point, not caring that they don't know it. And the LN tarring all indies with the same brush. Not all of them, there are some great Navy Indy pilots of course. Better than some of the officials.
Taking my own case in point. I am working very hard to get my Rheinland unofficial faction recognised and respected by all the factions of Rhineland, especially the official ones. I have partaken in Rp on the forums to raise awareness, and to ensure that the officials know that I am taking my role seriously and abiding by the laws and rp rules required. If I am in doubt about something, I have asked or I have looked it up. I am, in short, making an effort.
This isn't necessarily the case with a lot of the Indy navy in liberty. Many are considerably new players, in their first capship no doubt and suddenly full of a sense of their own importance and omnipotence.
The problem is a case of communication and effort. I would suggest that the LN Official take time out to 'educate' the Indy pilots by doing, as suggested above, some training missions. Or, possibly some fleet manouvers on a larger scale with the cooperation of some of the RM players (Rp it as a simulation). Get these guys involved, show them what it means to work as a team alongside the official LN. Make it interesting and fun. Make them want to work with the LN because they enjoy doing so, not because they are told they must.
Obviously there are some lost causes, there always will be idiots and those who just dont care. Doesn't mean you shouldn't make the effort with others though. Some of them may turn out to be great assets to your faction.
Hi again, it was Cali a while back - GRN/LN event, I think. I don't mind it at all, I just think it is sort of symbolic for part of the problem. All in all, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I was [LN] though. I'd just do my best to be nice, patient and understanding with indies, and if they are beyond reasoning just leave them be. As long as you do a genuine effort (also by treating them as "rp entities" rather than ignoring them), you've done your part.
Late edit as a response to the post below:
Hi yes naturally there's a difference about those two, but as far as I know [Admins] don't tell people not to enter "in-rp". In fact, a group I was in at the time were told oorply in group chat by [LN]'ers not to enter Cali as well (while one admin was sitting 5k from us monitoring our every action), which is totally fine because you were having your event.
But at the same time you have to recognize the signal it is sending. Can you really fault players for getting the impression that it is a closed club, whether that is true or not?
(01-20-2013, 11:06 AM)Anaximander Wrote: (it's no coincidence that it is [LN] that is the only faction in recent times to reserve an entire fairly populated system for closed roleplay)
This is not something I recall. Please, tell me where and when.
Edit:
(01-20-2013, 12:46 PM)Anaximander Wrote: Hi again, it was Cali a while back - GRN/LN event, I think. I don't mind it at all, I just think it is sort of symbolic for part of the problem.
Telling someone to leave in RP is not the same as "shutting down a system for roleplay".
The phrasing "shutting down the system for roleplay" implies a sort of club, and if you are not part of it, you can't participate. beinfg asked to leave, in character, is infact being roleplayed with. You can respond to it in any number of ways.
Let me put it this way. Both parts are not perfect, but they think they are. Most of [LN] don't even know how to fly caps properly, not to mention weakness and abilities of their own ships. They think snub swarm can solve anything. Also they're too arrogant. They never making group with indies, unless last ones required for help. They keep fighting, RPing, and just flying on their own. When they making group, they leave it once the job is done and keep being arrogant. Indies and [LN] don't communicate much. [LN] think indies must become good on their own or join [LN]. But even indies who became good still remain out of their groups, and this stupid condition remain.
As about indies. They're retarded from the beginning. Those who accepted that fact and started learning, became better. Who didn't remain retarded. Most of them buy their ships because they looks cool. Even I did. And I thought bad about [LN] as well, till I decided to count them in only when they're already fighting.
This is hilarious situation, [LN] don't want indies in their groups because they fear that they will do only worse, indies dislike [LN] for their arrogance. Those who tried to achieve more cooperation between officials and indies have failed. Though attempts were made by indies only so far. I haven't witnessed real attempt to achieve understanding from [LN] side. They only keep saying they want to.
Indie training program wasn't that try. If Joe or someone else want to discuss it, pm me in skype, because here it would be just a waste.
My point based from observations from indie side. Most of problems on this matter caused by that arrogance. Indies don't do their part because they think that [LN] should change their opinion, [LN] don't wanna change their opinion because they're doing fine without indies, and don't wanna bother with them. But most funny, that they keep trying to control indies with their official or primary faction status.
Sorry for mistakes my english not good enough... hope my point won't suffer from that :|
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