Keep the ideas coming people. Lets re-visit some of the old ideas too.
Lets get some stuff actually working.
Someone do some grave surfing.
Off the top of my head:
Capital ship registration.
Capital ship faction control
Playerwipe
Passwording the server
Harsher Admins
Admins more connected to community
Compulsary faction joining
Player faction overrides
Making a PVP server
...more stuff I have no brain space left for...
Do not worry about dismissing the ideas or bringing up the arguments. I just want ideas at the moment. Everything we can think of.
Perhaps we can find something that will help, make this *thing* get sorted once and for all.
More questions:
What do you expect as a player?
Should Disco be free for all, with access to everything?
Is there a difference between players who have been here longer than a person who has been here for one day?
Ask more questions. I'm tired and my brain hurts.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
' Wrote:What's wrong with Disco?
What's the fix?
So I say attitudes.
You say faceless, ruthless, admins would help.
The very fundamental way Disco is set up needs changing.
Do I understand you right?
Is Disco setup for the numbers we have?
What's the difference between now and before?
Why is it so magnified now? Surely numbers alone wouldn't bring the problems we face?
What would make Disco work for the numbers that we have? - don't just work on the forum-ites. Remember all those who play ingame but don't come on the forums much as well. I've met many people who aren't on the forums but they RP well and try to stay in the rules.
How do we want Disco to work?
What makes a good Disco for you?
The fundamental way disco is set up does need changing if we want things to change. Things might go back to better times once the summer splurge is over, but somehow I dont think that will be enough.
Disco is not set up for the numbers we have.
The difference is the ratio of people in power to people not in power as well as the total number of people in power, these things cause animosity and suspicion and segregation, generally unintentionally, but thats what happens.
Numbers alone do bring this kind of problem, when a company grows behind a certain size it needs to make major changes in its policy and often needs to restructure, I do not think we have done wither of those.
As for my thoughts on a solution, I will get to that shortly.
' Wrote:This is the internet and this is a free public server. Play any public game and you will find this sort of thing, particularly worse on free communities. A close knit community works much better, and all round has a better aptmostphere. There are arguments and disagreements but by in large they pale in comparison to the drama on these forums.
The larger this community gets, the worse it is going to get. Roleplaying communities work best small scale. Discovery has become the largest Freelancer mod, and thus attracts all the new players. Short of turning this into a closed community, I don't see any solution to all our problems.
First, we know this is not going to become a closed community, unless Igiss has a major life experience that makes him do a complete 180. Your point about the close knit community is dead on though and I think it is the divisions in the community as well as the increasing population that is the cause for the majority of problems here. There are many divides here, some of them larger than others.
First of all there is a huge divide between between the average player and the admin here. They dont get to play together almost ever, at least not to the knowledge of many.
The second divide is between the developer and the player. Now this one is much smaller as developers often post ideas and thought on the main section of the forums.
There is also the divide between faction leadership and members and independent players. This is something faction really need to deal with on their own, so I am not going to explore it.
A fourth divide exists between faction leaders and developers. This is a big one as evidenced by the FP11 situation.
Finally there is the divide between player and player. Now, I would like to think that a lot of this animosity filters down from the other divides. Additionally, nothing can be done about it directly really, everyone just has to try their hardest to give anyone they meet on the server a chance before jumping to any conclusions. Judgment should be reserved as often as possible.
Now, how do we bridge these divides? Well, personally, I think they need to be bridged with two things, one of which can actually be changed via structure and policy, the other one is a bit more personal and general. The first one is interaction and communication.
1:The Admin/Player Divide
Applying this to the first divide, there is obviously not enough. Reputations get changed without notification, forum requests to admins are not often answered, I rarely see any in game anymore, at least not on their admin characters. I see one basic solution to this issue, expand the admin team. There needs to be enough so that most players can have at least occasional to infrequent contact with an admin. And I dont mean just seeing them in space, I mean having combat with them, chatting with them, and generally getting to know them as quality human beings. Ideally it would be nice to see some of them acting in a capacity similar to the angels sometime.
The expansion of the admin team can take two forms. One, more admins. I dont really like this idea as it may just lead to disorganization, confusion and animosity among the admins. Two, create a second class of admins. These admins would have fewer powers than full admins. They could beam and act as a direct witness to sanction able offenses, aka, they can write abbreviated reports. They do not have the power to sanction by removing credits or equipment, all they can do is place people in bastille to talk with them and try and help them integrate, and if that fails, hold them there until they cna be dealt with by a master admin. These sub admins would be under the supervision of the current admins. In addition to performing the duties I have listed above they would also act as educators and goodwill ambassadors, much like the angels. They would be able to tell people about all the good things the master admins are doing and spend as much time helping as possible. There should probably be a minimum amount of in game time a week required to be an active sub-admin. I think this would effectively bridge the first and perhaps largest gap.
2:The Developer/Player Divide
Second divide isnt a huge deal, im gonna leave it be for now
3:The Faction/Indie Divide
Third divide is a faction responsibility, really, so im not gonna talk about it here.
4:The Developer/Faction Leader Divide
Fourth one. This is a problem. Shouldnt be terribly hard to fix. You can include all faction leaders in the development team or a representative from the each NPC faction if there are multiple player factions, which might not be a bad idea to allow a more diverse set of opinions as well as to give representation. This might put too many people on the dev team who's primary objective is to do what is right for their faction. You could restrict them to working on their own faction only perhaps, but overall I can see this being pretty bad.
The other option is make communication with faction leadership the responsibility of any developer who is working on that faction. This would keep any major misunderstandings from happening.
The third option I see is to have a member of the dev team responsible for liaising with faction leaders. This person would mainly be a secretary that would send messages and arrange meetings if another dev team member was too busy to find or contact faction leaders themselves.
5:The Player/Player Divide
As for the fifth divide, I think if the other divides are reduced or bridged, this one should get smaller as well. All we need is less judgment and more goodwill. Try your hardest to treat anyone here like one of the more esteemed members, give them the benefit of the doubt for as long as possible and if they show they have absolutely now intention of following the guidelines of this community in any form do you even think about taking a harsh tone, or ask for official action.
So those are my thoughts. Feel free to comment and yeah, I am out of brain power now....
' Wrote:First, we know this is not going to become a closed community, unless Igiss has a major life experience that makes him do a complete 180. Your point about the close knit community is dead on though and I think it is the divisions in the community as well as the increasing population that is the cause for the majority of problems here.
I wasn't suggested a closed community. No, in fact I think that is counter-productive. Along with being peaceful and friendly, close knit communitys are also known for being rather dead, inactive and such. I was using my example of a closed community to bring up a different point, as seen in my first post.
' Wrote:And we already know that is not going to happen. Any change we make will benefit one group of people while harming another, there isn't a middle ground unfortunately.
The admin team does not need to be expanded, but a Q/A or Customer Support staff would be a good, it would essentially be a paperwork job, which is more of a secretary...
Tiberius Walker, putting flames out and being awesome since Apr 13 2008 ™
[8/17/2008 5:56:46 PM] Aaron (Boss/Jurgen) says: Can't bring myself to say it... Looks like you get the LABC, I've seen what you can do in one
Walker (Albert Wint): I can has win? --- Epyon the Bored: You can haz win. --- [1:18:00 PM] Chris (Niezck) says: I love you <3
[5:55:53 PM] Raisu says: Walker pwned both Battleships(LNS-Texas LNS-Arizona) - [5:55:57 PM] Raisu says: in a cruiser Tiberius Walker, spreading mayhem, destruction, and Spamming Flood since Oct 22 2008 ™
[9:08:25 AM] Gurjiv (Frozen) says: I hope someone gives you AIDs.
[7:15:17 PM] Dylan (Ximen) says: Walker... you have no idea how much fail you bring into this world...
[8:05:08 AM] Ross (SevereTrinity) says: Screw you for making me install FL again
[10:51IE AM] Epyon the Bored says: My god if I ever meet you I am going to strangle you. Tiberius Walker, being better then you since April 30, 2009 â¢
We will remember - We do not Forget - We do not Forgive
' Wrote:The admin team does not need to be expanded, but a Q/A or Customer Support staff would be a good, it would essentially be a paperwork job, which is more of a secretary...
Well, an intermediary group that works closely with both admins and players might work. I suppose they dont need any powers, but I think we need something to make the leadership here more tangible and human and for that there needs t be a connection.
' Wrote:Actually it was called Pay It Forward & as a philosophy, utterly rockin'
I remember this movie from Health class. Strangely, it makes a lot more sense when you're a part of a community you remember differently...
Anyway, commentary!
' Wrote:
Making a PVP server
Help populate the PvP Sever
Help populate other PvP Servers such as Discovery of Discovery
Really, I think this is the best thing we can do to build more RP and the "old-timey" feel in our community. Remembering what Del told me on a call once upon a yestereve, most people who break rules and cause problems are only doing so because we're so radically different from other Freelancer servers. People such as me, who have never played online, wouldn't know about that, but most other old-time Freelancer players probably have never seen such draconian rules such as ours. If we build a PvP server to appease the PvPers, we'd have the RP server all for the people who want to RP.
Of course, the cons to this is that we'd have less people taking a foray into RP and realizing they love it. I might not be one of those people, but I know there are many of them...
Onto questions!
' Wrote:
What do you expect as a player?
I want to feel like a part of a community. When I see one of my allies or someone neutral, I want to say hello and be returned a hello. I want to talk to someone before we fight. I want to have a fun fight where I either know the outcome (obvious win or loss) or grit my teeth at the prospect that I might just win. Those are the things I want to expect as I player.
What I have come to expect, well, I'll break it down....
[AFA] -
I can expect to meet any number of people who have no appreciation for the RP I have worked to create and have no interest in attempting to learn that RP. I expect someone trying to push my RP aside for what they THINK the Farmer's Alliance should be doing, despite our obscure, but vanilla goals. I can expect to invite them to pm me so I can explain, in detail, what we do and why we do it. I can also expect one of these people to return to fight me again with another ship with greater combat capabilities.
That is, if I don't get my primary expectation, which is someone attempting to "Liven up" Kusari with PvP action with, again, little respect for the RP in place, or an RP I cannot agree with. I can expect to engage them in a fight with little interaction beforehand. I can expect to be outgunned and probably die.
Best of all, I can expect to feel so inherently wronged and robbed of my RP experience that I am compelled to file a sanction report against one of the many infractions I will witness because the other person deems my RP or my demands inferior to their expectations of what we should be doing.
BPA) -
I can expect a fine RP experience on my BPA. Between NLH, the MR, TBH, and the other multitude of enemies I have on my expected dinner plate. Honestly, I can expect an fun fight which might just result in kudos on both sides. Best of all, I can expect my wingmates, if present, to be of such a great stature that I often wish I could be as cool as them.
I can also expect to deal with a faction nextdoor that seems to contradict most of the institution we have set in place. I can expect myself to feel inclined to log on in times when they are absent and avoid contact with the majority of them despite the fact that a Hussar is hardly ever a match for my enemies' ships.
Gateway) -
I can really expect a wonderful RP experience in my Gateway). I can expect a friendly greeting from traders who may or may not understand RP. I can expect at least one person to ask me for money, who I can, hopefully, help understand RP and the rules in the process of helping him get a ship. I can expect a great interaction with pirates, most of whom I can at least attempt to get away from without physically moving. I can expect a wonderful conversation with my escorts when I hire them, or any traders I come into a convoy with.
Best of all, I think I can expect a few eyebrows to be raised at the commodities I'm carrying. :P
LWB| -
I can expect a wonderful RP opportunity on my LWB. I can expect many law enforcers to raise an eyebrow at the Feuriger Kohlrabi (Ach nein, Torpedoes los! :lol:). I can expect Udo Ackermann to give us a fine many chuckles while we RP. I can expect a fine debate with the RM or RFP. I can expect any traders we come across to find our RP refreshing, or odd, at least. I can expect a fight to ensue at one point or another, and I can expect it to be fun, caps or not.
I could also expect a certain character to take a vendetta against another faction much farther than it should be. I can expect many raised eyebrows at our actions at that time, and sometimes sour feelings. I can expect that I'll feel sour about not doing anything about it...
The problem I really see here is a problem I saw emerge in Guild Wars communities not too long ago, which Nighthawk laid out quite nicely.As the community grows bigger, it attracts others from other communities that do not necessarily play into the structure in place. The proportions of "bad" players doesn't increase immediately, but, rather, the proportion stays the same, but, because there are simply more of them around, they influence more people. More "On-the-fence" players are drawn into being "bad" players, and they get into the same habits of distrust, griefing (purposefully ruining other's gaming experience), and other such rapscallionesque activities. After a while, trust disolves, and the community becomes less and less cohesive until eventually deteriorating into something...Not quite nice. We're a long way away from that, really, due to our nature, but, still, it's a slippery slope.
In Guild Wars, this came when people started becoming elitist. They did not respect the other player's experience in the game, nor their choice of profession. I remember days where my guild found a group, and we would stick together for hours, or often the entire day, chatting, playing, even in losing, we would simply just try again. At the end of the day, we'd add each other to our friends lists and call each other another day to go some more. These days, finding a group is a miracle. Even when one is found, sticking around for the entire day is a laughable prospect. Idle talk, 'eh, good luck with that one as well. It's really a sad state.
In Discovery Freelancer, I believe this happened when the independent - faction disputes began and the adminality became sparser. The inherent trust between all players was broken then. In such a manor as in Guild Wars, I can remember flying around as a Dagger and being greeted by people I passed. I can remember chatting, enjoying myself, generally being respected by everyone around. In such a way as Guild Wars, I can see people greet each other less. They chat less. They don't necessarily respect anyone else. It's not as bad as other places, in fact, what I just said paints a very bad picture of our community, but, it's becoming more and more apparent, I think.
What should be done...Just respect people. Greet people. Talk to people like they're people, not just pixels on the screen. Treat them like they're people, not just pixels. I know the interaction is what makes this game much more fun than much better games I have (Oblivion, Fallout 3, Company of Heroes, Command and Conquer: The First Decade, and World in Conflict come to mind), we should promote more friendly interactions. Afterall, I know I stayed here because "there are all these cool Roleplaying dudes around who are all really nice and cool." and not "Those elitist prick Roleplayers" that I get called somewhat often.
' Wrote:
Should Disco be free for all, with access to everything?
This really depends. If people can be responsible and respect each other, then I think we don't need any faction independent restrictions. If we can't respect each other, then, we are only going to become more and more draconian...
' Wrote:
Is there a difference between players who have been here longer than a person who has been here for one day?
This is an odd question, really. We can trust people we've known for a long time, yes, but we also have to give trust and respect to newbies as well. This doesn't mean that we should trust a new player to fly a Nomad BS because we give him trust, be we should allow him to be capable in his own RP and develop it in a believable way that he sees fit. The new player should respect the trust we give him and try and develop into an even more trusted member of the community before trying something outstanding. The new player should respect the fact that we've been here for a while and we know what's going down a little better. This doesn't mean we're better than them, we need to respect the fact that they haven't had the opportunity to learn as much as we have yet.
To wrap it up, there is no difference in the person, we should both be treated the same under the rules and in faction eyes, but, in the community's eyes, older players should be trusted more with leniency to abnormal RP that may end up in a PvP or RP advantage.
Ah, well, there is my view of what you asked, Hyung. I believe we'll soon see someone who says we're just crying wolf and this'll eventually get locked, but, hey, what can really be done about that? Hope whoever reads this feels strongly enough about these pixels to actually read it. :D
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
I would like to speak as a new player here, since i only arrived 1,5 months ago on the server.
I see a few major problems.
The 4.85 has just arrived, it is all over the internet, i mean someone starts looking for a Freelancer mod the first one he/she founds is the disco it has the biggest server, tons of new systems, tons of new ships.
This causes a huge number of new players to make characters here and try it out.
I was lucky that i had RP past, and because some of the experienced disco players have found me and answered my questions, directed me to the forums where i could read the rules etc. I understood them and i do my best to avoid breaking them.
But most of the new players are not this lucky, or worse they don't even care about the rules just want to pewpew...
These players are the cause of many problems, they give a real headache to admins, who wants to read sanction reports hours long every day? Also they annoy those players who play by the rules, shooting down someone without a warning is a big minus in my eyes...
I thought i could do a little about it, so i've spent days trying to teach some players how to play, cos i simply wouldn't like to see them banned, and i am proud that none of those players were sanctioned to this day. But in those days i realized that even if there's 20 more players like myself who tries to help them it's not enough.
There are simply too much newcomers.
So from my view the changes should be in the game mechanics. If these simply wouldn't allow players to for example land on those bases where they shouldn't there would be much less sanction reports and the admins could breathe a little. Setting the Kusari Police and Naval Forces hostile to Junkers IDd ships is a good idea (Samura and Kishiro was bad but it has been fixed). So i'd like to see the same for other factions too, this would really solve a lot of problems. Another problem is that new players choose their ships randomly so maybe just maybe ships should be only sold to those who has atleast friendly reputation with the faction who sells them, much like the weapon sells. To further improve this, ships could be modified so people could not mount an ID on them which is not white or green on the tech tab, also making ships unable to launch into space without an equipped ID would be a big plus.
With these changes the admins could save a lot of time. Ofcourse these changes would require a review of the special requests cos the IDs there may have to be reapplied manually.
Thats all for now cos i'm really sleepy... Will make another post with the rest of my thoughts.
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IE AM] Epyon the Bored says: My god if I ever meet you I am going to strangle you.
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