To preface, while this does represent some opinion from each of the official Zoner factions, there was never a unanimous consensus reached. The usual infighting started up and I do think that ground our progress to a halt. It is for that reason that, despite the fact that the Zoner factions did not fully agree to all points listed, that I present this to you, with many of the suggestions from the officials included. Perhaps as a community we can brainstorm out of the box here.
*dons suit of armor*
Zoner ID Reformation Proposal
Community Input Edition
Over the past year or so, it's become clear that there is a divide in what the three official Zoner factions perceive to be the direction of Zoner roleplay, which is also related to strong regional differences. All we have to go on from vanilla, really, is that Zoners began as a movement of people looking to get outside of House space and the accompanying laws and regulations. They took up diplomacy and their weapons are their words, we've all heard this before. The problem we're facing now is on where that particular foundation would have led.
It would seem that the argument could be boiled down to two opposing theories, those being the following:
Unification - As the Zoners grew, they became more self-sufficient. They banded together into more organized communities and worked together for the common good of their brethren. They built infrastructure to support the growing Zoner 'nation' and formed government to keep their numbers represented fairly while still making decisions for the good of all. These Zoners consolidated into their own pseudo-state, still very weary of relations with the major Houses of Sirius. To ensure safety against said Houses, the Zoners formed strong alliances with their neighbors in Eastern Sirius, namely the Order and GMG. These Zoners actively defend the space they consider to be their own territory and have the shipbuilding infrastructure to do such. Although not nearly as powerful as the Sirian Houses, the Zoners can field a small militia force strong enough to hold its own in an engagement.
Decentralization - Even with there being a large number of Zoners and bases, many still desired the freedom to pave their own way in the Border and Edge Worlds. There was still kinship felt amongst the Zoners, but that was second to self-preservation and independence. As with any group, though, like-minded people would still clump together into smaller 'pockets'. These Zoners moved throughout Sirius, striking up diplomacy unique to their areas and living in the spaces between the Houses. These Zoners lacked a heavy infrastructure and thus fielded mainly smaller ships and an array of transports to keep their supply lines open. Finding work and making a living was done both inside and around the houses. The Zoners of the decentralization ideals still believe that neutrality is important given their relatively weak total structure, but the groups therein that have formed have become some of the more influential Independent groups within Sirius.
What we have is two very different ideas on what the Zoner movement would have become. What we've yet to really explore, though, is the possibility that both of these ideas are correct; that neither approach is less valid than the other. That the Zoners, as big as they are, were likely to have some sort of divide in ideals. This is readily apparent when we examine the differences in role play between the current three Zoner officials.
Because of the difference in theory, we've also encountered difficulty in how those two apply to diplomacy InRP, and then extending to OORP with use of our faction rights. We as factions cannot even agree that we all represent the Zoner way. It becomes clear that we need a way to still hold to those Zoner mentalities that we've established, but then both InRP and OORP designate a visible divide between one theory and another.
As a setup to work toward solving the current situation, we're proposing a new set of Zoner-like IDs which would take the place of the Zoner and Zoner Guard ID - these being what I've named the Neo-Zoner and Foundation Zoner respectively. (The names have been pointed out as being kinda lame, but I haven't come up with anything better yet to describe it. Please do offer suggestion.)
The Neo-Zoner would represent the decentralization theory for the evolution of the Zoner movement. They would be the Zoners who move in and out of the houses, trading, escorting, and roleplaying among the same. They'd take up the mantle of those Freeports and Zoner stations located in, around, and on the immediate fringes of House Space. Neo-Zoners are more comfortable working with factions within the houses and don't have a unified group leading the charge. In faction terms, this would be best represented by the direction that TAZ and OSI has taken in their roleplay.
The Foundation Zoners would be those who stuck very closely to the original Zoner reasons for leaving the Houses and over time exaggerated them some, turning their casual distrust of the houses into dislike and sometimes paranoia. These Zoners would keep more to themselves, be a tad more isolationist in regards to the majority of Sirius, although allying with their neighbors for safety would certainly be within reason. These Zoners have organized into their own unit, a governed body of sorts, and through that have applied an infrastructure which, over the years has grown to be able to support larger ships and a heftier unified population. The Foundationists would be represented functionally by the Omicroners.
Of course, there is the roleplay difference. Naturally, we also have OORP reasons for wanting new IDs.
For the Neo-Zoner ID, OSI in particular would want the ability to dock 5k transports in house space to support its role as a supply company. The TAZ field a fair amount of capital-class ships, but do roleplay these ships moreso than they get into fights with them just like any sensible Zoner would. Naturally, though, for these benefits we'd be willing to give up a little more too. By adopting the single Neo-Zoner ID, we would further limit who we can assist in regards to defense, placing even more emphasis on not attacking unless we're attacked first, forcing us to rely heavily on our diplomacy and using alternate means to curry favor and maintain our neutrality. Regulation would be placed on what goods could be transported, limiting the most taboo of items such as Cardamine and Artifacts.
A problem here, though, is what to do about the large capitals that the TAZ field? Under a single ID shared between OSI and TAZ, we wouldn't want to introduce something akin to a go-everywhere-do-everything ID. What came to minf first was prohibiting the use of offensive weaponry at all on Neo-Zoner Cruisers and Battleships. Make having mounted guns a sanctionable offense. That could be tough to enforce, though, so next was the thought to have Neo-Zoner ships not be in House Space at all. But that seems awfully restrictive, as it wouldn't let Doc holliday, for example, take Med.Force.One to aid those in need. A situation like this really does lend credit to possibly having three IDs, but the roleplay doesn't quite seem divergent enough for that.
For the Foundation Zoner ID, it would look more like the Zoner Guard. Free use of ships at all levels with limited docking rights inside house space to further the idea that the Foundationists would be weary to have relations within said houses. In exchange for exclusive use of this ID, however, official Foundation Zoner factions would gain more freedom in what they can do as far as defending their stations and what they would claim as their space within the context of server play.
As a sticking point, though, we come to what to do about the Barge specifically. As a Zoner leader, it bothers me to see independent Zoner barges running around trading through house space, especially when the Zoner ID wasn't meant for such. My initial thought was to restrict usage merely to factionized Zoner players (In our case, OSI and TAZ), but in retrospect that seemed incredibly self-serving and unfair to the indies as and TAZ alike, the latter of which I don't think has any Barges at all. Other than that, the thoughts are to either allow them and live with the indie Barge Zoner traders who already do what they do, or disallow the ship entirely, which would cut out a significant element of OSI's manufacturing RP.
Good of the one vs. good of the many? I've left anything about the barge out, as I'd rather not overstep there, but if anyone's got a creative solution to that matter, please do speak up.
That said, I propose the IDs to look something akin to the following:
Neo-Zoner ID
Based on the Zoner ID, rename of the Zoner IFF
Fit for OSI and TAZ by roleplay
ID Text:
Throughout the decades, the Zoner movement has grown and adapted to the changing climate in Sirius. The Neo-Zoners still hold to the old ways and use their words as their weapons, but these Zoners don't harbor the dislike of the Houses that their forefathers did. Seeing relations with the Houses as opportunities for work and benefit for all Zoners, Neo-Zoners work toward better relations with the civilized segments of Sirius while holding the core tenants of the Zoner movement and still keeping diplomatically independent.
Pilot carrying this ID is a Neo-Zoner, who:
Can trade and escort traders
Can only attack those who are: directly attacking Zoners, diplomatically hostile to Zoners, or those who have violated the regulations governing a particular Zoner base.
Cannot ally with anyone except against Neo-Zoner faction enemies, or to defend Zoners and Zoner bases.
Cannot trade in Cardamine, Artifacts, Blood Diamonds, Black Market Munitions, or Slaves within House Space.
Cannot fulfill bounty contracts except against Neo-Zoner faction enemies.
*Cruisers and Battleships are permitted with this ID provided that those ships do not mount any offensive armaments (I do not believe this term can be carved in stone thus remaining valid for all times). Capital ships under this ID are still bound by the laws of those houses through which they travel and must RP such. Mounting weapons on cruisers or battleships with this ID is a sanctionable offense. Carrying unmounted weapons is permitted.
Will take additional rephacks on:
Liberty Rogues (Hostile)
Mollys (Hostile)
Hessians (Hostile enough not to be able to dock. -0.55 or whatever it is.)
Bases to apply the IFF to:
Freeport 1
Freeport 2
Freeport 6
Freeport 5 (?) - Strong Corsair ties wouldn't make this a great base for the Foundationists to have
Freeport 10
Freeport 14 (OSI-controlled docking rights InRP)
Ames Research Station
Planet Gran Canaria
Lanzarote Base
Boa Vista Station
Porto Novo
Pueblo Bonito (TAZ-controlled docking rights InRP)
Shasta Orbital Skyhook (TAZ-controlled docking rights InRP)
Sedonia Station (TAZ-controlled docking rights InRP)
Foundation Zoner ID
Based on the Zoner Guard ID, rename of the Zoner Guard IFF
Fit for the Omicroners by roleplay
ID Text:
The Foundation Zoners represent much of the old Zoner way - distrust and dislike of the Houses and their regulations. As has always been true with Zoners, individual neutrality is paramount, although in recent decades the Foundation Zoners have found it prudent to ally with some of their neighbors to ensure continued safety in the Edge Worlds. Foundation Zoners, due to their more independent mentality, have a much larger infrastructure than the Neo-Zoners and seek only to rely upon themselves.
Pilot carrying this ID is a Foundation Zoner, who :
Can trade and escort traders
Can demand Zoner pilots from any non-Zoner ship carrying them and can attack if the demand is ignored or refused
Can demand contraband as determined by the Foundation Zoner official factions within systems that have a Foundation Zoner base and attack if the demand is ignored or refused. May not tax or demand credits.
Can only attack those who are: have directly attacked Zoners or Zoner NPC faction allies, carrying Zoner pilots, diplomatically hostile to Foundation Zoners, or those who have violated the regulations governing a particular Zoner base.
Cannot fulfill bounty contracts except against Foundation Zoner faction enemies
Cannot dock on any stations/planets/bases in lawful House space except for:
(Being more centralized and organized, the Omicroners would have more influence and say over the Foundation IFF'd bases than, by comparison, the Neo-Zoners would over the N-Z IFF'd bases)
This would provide for each of the factions to have their own relative diplomacy and free up use of faction rights, both for the Zoner factions and for other factions who would wish to roleplay different effective reputations among the three, enforcable by the same rights. TAZ and OSI could still share an ID as the Neo-Zoners, as we generally don't make too much in the way of waves on that front. Omicroners would be free to do as they please with the Foundation ID.
One might ask why we don't just propose IDs for our own factions. From my point of view, that would help out the individual faction, certainly, but there's three reasons I have for wanting the Zoner split.
None of the factions differ drastically enough from the core Zoner to warrant its own ID. Instead, its the factions that vary vastly from each other in what they see as Zoner roleplay.
Having Player Faction IDs restricts independent players who want to get involved. We want these benefits and changes to be able to extend to our indies, especially those who've taken up mantles as Freeport administrators, and show that the rolepaly would indicate that a particular Zoner from either side would have a certain set of freedoms given their environment.
We are still Zoners. Having independent faction IDs would indicate that we've evolved past something Zoner, which isn't the goal.
With this, we can both encourage independent play along the lines with which we're directing the Zoner roleplay as well as be able to guide our own ideas with much more relative ease while still following the roleplay that's been established.
And, as a note, The base lists above also are just a proposed guideline as to which stance the bases may have adopted and what IFF they would show. It would be the goal that we would continue to allow Freeport Administration by independent players as it has existed these past few months. Because a base show's either side's IFF doesn't make it any more responsible to follow direct orders of the official factions than it is as things stand presently.
This proposal is just that; some ideas that are being presented to see how receptive the community would be to changing things. This is very similar to the Zoner/Zoner Guard faction ID split that was brought up in Zoner circles some time back, but with some alteration and adaptation to recognize the divergence that the RP has taken among the factions.
Ideas have been presented as well that along with this ID split, should it garner any interest, as to what we should do with faction rights and diplomacy between Neo and Foundation Zoners. I personally am inclined to leave it open - don't force a stance for two reasons:
Zoner are Zoners. Leaving the diplomacy open to evolve with hte roleplay should present more opportunities for a more diverse roleplay.
While OSI, TAZ, and Omicroners are present now, there may be a day where any of us no longer exist in an official capacity. Forcing the groups to ally along our current faction lines seems short-sighted.
I believe that should this split occur with hte IDs, that a lot of the Zoner infighting would cease anyhow, rendering the need to set diplomacy as moot.
I think that about wraps it up. Like I said, while each of the factions found the proposal intriguing, for various reasons certain details were seen in discrepancy with each faction, a lot of it being what I decribed in the issues before I got to stating the actual IDs. At this point, I'm just looking for a little more input and opinions on what you folks might think or any questions you might have had come to mind.
I know it was an extremely long post, but thanks sincerely for reading.
' Wrote:To preface, while this does represent some opinion from each of the official Zoner factions, there was never a unanimous consensus reached. The usual infighting started up and I do think that ground our progress to a halt. It is for that reason that, despite the fact that the Zoner factions did not fully agree to all points listed, that I present this to you, with many of the suggestions from the officials included. Perhaps as a community we can brainstorm out of the box here.
What in-fighting occured?
[6/29/2011 1:01:37 PM] Richard Pyle (n00bl3t) {Tumble-Weed} [Brthrn]: So, nothing much has changed since yesterday?
[6/29/2011 1:09:05 PM | Edited 1:09:08 PM] Corey (Gheis): Don't think so
[6/29/2011 1:10:02 PM] Richard Pyle (n00bl3t) {Tumble-Weed} [Brthrn]: Back to selling and buying then, and sorting out trade threads.
[6/29/2011 9:08:28 PM] Richard Pyle (n00bl3t) {Tumble-Weed} [Brthrn]: So far from the (]o[) discussion, it is looking like a no on the splitting of the ID.
[6/30/2011 3:08:47 AM] gheis.mace: Aye, so it seems from both Omis and TAZ. I won't trash the document, but it looks like this isn't gonna be a viable solution.
From what that sounds like, (]o[) and [TAZ] did not like the idea of splitting the ID?:mellow:
- Vanilla zoners exist about as much as Vanilla [insert faction here] - there are very few factions that remained untouched - and that mainly cause no one touches them.... at all.
- Like any other faction that has taken "something" from vanilla and build on what was chosen - the ideas and concepts differ from one another. - some of them emphasis the trading, others build on the seclusion, others again on the core of anarchy and rejection of rigit house structures.
- zoners allow a LOT more freedom than for example: Bundschuh .... hence their roleplay also differs greatly.
- additionally, zoners are practicly EVERYWHERE - so its not only zoners having an idea about their roleplay - but its also people who do not roleplay zoners who have very strict ideas. - in terms of militaristic factions - and because freelancer is a competitive pvp game .... its a survival of the fittest ( - while fittest does not describe the one that wins the PVP, but the one that can brag about winning the PVP the best )
- multilateral roleplay is a myth on disco. - on a low key scale it can happen and does happen... but on serious and far reaching incidents..... its usually unilateral roleplay.
- each person reacts different to unilateral roleplay - in multilateral roleplay - each side is an actor... in unilateral roleplay one side is an actor, the other one RE-acts ... that means we get a factor that is unpredictable and somewhat detrimental.
why is it detrimental? - cause when people are forced to act a way they do not like to act - they become defensive ( seen with many a factions ) - defensive people tend NOT to give in - even against better judgement.
such a thing does not happen in multilateral roleplay - however ... it requires transparency, flexibility, respectful social behaviour and a general social competence anyway - which is hard to come by in RL... and even harder here. ( due to ppl being anonymous )
directly about the proposal:
- the proposal itself is - as i mentioned in skype before .... OK
- the reasons to apply such a proposal appear to me ( only to me - very subjective pov ) like admitting that we went waaay too far from the disco concept of zoners - which i do not agree with.
- different proposals were made and rejected in the past ... like:
- revert the Zoner ID to its Vanilla state ( fighters, freighters ) - and give them the governing right over the VANILLA freeports along with their history and political importance.
- create NEW IDs for those zoner factions that cannot RP with the ORIGINAL ID - allowing the use of other ships - and giving them the governing right over their respected NON-Vanilla freeports.
- those new factions will and MUST come with a new set of diplomacies, dependencies, obligations and rights.
- the ORIGINAL zoners can then roleplay a REAL neutrality ( they pose no threat at all anymore to anyone ) - but all the other factions are FORCED to abide to the zoners neutrality ( no threats, nothing at all )
the above concept was proposed some time ago. - mostly rejected, cause it would introduce major military powers in areas that "only" had zoners in there. - the balance of powers would tip.
that argument "might" occur with the OPs proposal, too - due to more unique diplomacies.
The main problem I see with the Zoners is that they got military grade ships, whereas they're really just spacedwelling civilians. It makes sense for them to have strong fightercraft to drive away raiders. But a military grade dreadnaught... it was a misstake to give them that.
This cascades into players starting to see the Zoners as a military force, both those that play Zoner and those that interact with them. That gets Zoners into conflict, which is directly opposite to their role. Historically, they -left- house space in order to find their own freedom. Personal freedom to the point of anarchy is the underlying philosophy there.
This new ID does not fit that, thus would no longer be a Zoner ID. If some Zoners want to strengthen their ties with the houses it will anger the unlawfuls. And the Zoner bases do not have a navy to fall back on - they'd probably be wiped out. Hostile to LibRogues, Mollies and Hessians? That'd put them on unfriendly terms with the Outcasts as well...
My own suggestion would be simpler. OSI is closest to what vanilla Zoners are about. Passive, willing to deal with both lawful and unlawful organizations, but abiding by house laws when in the houses... mostly. TAZ due to having settled and claimed their own system, and, for an organization worshipping chaos having managed an odd degree of organization... not so much anymore. They are more of a mini-house in independent space. Omicroners have taken an agressive stance, which given the nature of the Omicrons, makes sense... but that means they have abandoned the docile and passive nature that Zoners traditionally held. So. Give TAZ and Omicroners their own ID, to be used in conjunction with the Zoner IFF. Both factions have sufficient members to warrant this, and both factions already posess a home system.
OSI can then oversee the rest of the Zoner bases, working with the local base administrators.
Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.
Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.
Great concept, although as it has been said before, the Zoners are a room for interpretation and destroying the original Zoner ID may not be such a great idea.
I generally agree that there is need for changes in the zoner thing- I think that different IFFs for different Freeports is great idea. The different IDs are also good idea.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
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