Oh, another quick point on why people don't bother a lot of the Zoners, and many of the IMG...
Their bases are, effectively, bases noone else wanted. Freeport 5, for instance was abandoned due to radiation, so the Zoners basically claimed it as a place to live, where they'd be left alone. The IMG do similar, claiming the derelict Freeport 4, and the wrecked Battleship Hood.
I think some other Freeports are similar, although I'm not sure.
some freeports are pioneer projects - like freeport 7 ( is that the one that was destroyed? ) or freeport 1 ... harder to say something about the custom made stations. - sparta, freeport 15 and livadia are gigantic - but probably not cause its in line with zoner RP, but more cause the system creater wanted them to be large.
about battleship hood - was it abandoned and claimed? - or was it purchased by that guy that runs it ( thats still quite a difference )
but yes - some freeports are claimed in rather unhostipitable places, but others are placed with intention in those areas - like freeport 2 .. between rheinland and liberty - a perfect place for "border-trade", or freeport 11, which was probably supported by the Core.
its hard to label them under one single banner. - they are very different and built with different intentions.
' Wrote:- zoners are usually described as rather weak in most lore. - they are individualists - and only labelled "zoners" from others. they are one heterogenous group of people, lacking the strength that comes from being organized.
that's my thinking. each group of zoners are different. they wear the same label of "zoner" because they all live outside the "zone" as it were, referring to the controlled zones of the houses and corporations.
the Zoners on Gran Canaria might know of the ones in Bering, but they have no affiliation with them if they do.
Zoner is just a generic term in my opinion for those wanting to be autonomous/independent. Like i said before that still doesn't mean they can't group together and form a small group, but i wouldn't see them all being united under one Zoner flag
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' Wrote:The infocard on Gran Canaria suggests that Bretonia would invade given a chance due to potential resources, hence the Corsairs. I'm of the opinion that there is plenty of motivation and plenty of chance.
The GMG and Order wouldn't come to help, it's too far, among various other reasons.
Well, Blunt, at least we know where you stand, representing Bretonia. In Doc's failed effort of diplomacy with Bretonia, you told Doc he was insulting. I'll take being insulting, which Doc wasn't, over being a power hungry house system that is willing to draw an otherwise neutral group into a war. To invade a Zoner home planet, the only one they have, would draw more enemies against a house system than it would anything else. Zoners would rather not fight but I have no doubt that if provoked they would put one up.
And let's not forget, the deuterium trade isn't just with Kusari, Bretonia is in it too as South Shields also needs it for it's own fuel production. Zoners don't produce everything they need so they will go to house systems to gain what they need.
Quote:To invade a Zoner home planet, the only one they have, would draw more enemies against a house system than it would anything else.
I'm not quite sure who you're talking about, when you say that a fight between the Zoners and Bretonia would draw enemies down on Bretonia. What enemies are these, exactly? We've already come to the conclusion that the Mollies would probably help Bretonia, because their homeworld was nuked, and that is, in essence, the Zoner's fault. The corsairs are already Bretonia's enemy, and so are the Kusari. Liberty dislikes zoners.
You've this thought that the Zoners are the equal of a house. They're not. Bretonia is nearly eight hundred years old, it spans six systems, and has three densely populated planets with an industrial base that has taken hundreds of years to construct.
Moreover, Doc, I ask you to look around. As a Zoner, who are your friends?
Bringing Deuterium to Stokes is fine. Bringing it to Kusari, and saying that you intend to continue doing so, is not, no matter how much you bring to Stokes. And thats what you're failing to grasp.
' Wrote:Well, Blunt, at least we know where you stand, representing Bretonia. In Doc's failed effort of diplomacy with Bretonia, you told Doc he was insulting. I'll take being insulting, which Doc wasn't, over being a power hungry house system that is willing to draw an otherwise neutral group into a war. To invade a Zoner home planet, the only one they have, would draw more enemies against a house system than it would anything else. Zoners would rather not fight but I have no doubt that if provoked they would put one up.
And let's not forget, the deuterium trade isn't just with Kusari, Bretonia is in it too as South Shields also needs it for it's own fuel production. Zoners don't produce everything they need so they will go to house systems to gain what they need.
South Shields is IMG, not Bretonian, IMG being closer to the Zoners in ideology than they are to Bretonia. However, Bretonia is reasonably free compared to other houses (it also has historical connections), so it lets them operate within its borders.
This isn't about any perceived faction bias, so don't say that I, the player, called Doc, the character insulting. Stuart, the character, called Doc, the character, insulting. Of course, I do find the implication that I can't separate myself from a fictional pirate character at least a touch irritating.
This is about how politics work. Actions have consequences, and, yes, the houses are power-hungry for various reasons. I don't claim that anyone is altruistic. In the past, small groups have attempted to do what Zoners do in Sirius. Be it the Diggers in England's late middle ages, be it anarchists in civil war Spain, even Israeli settlers' kibbutzes... they, being small, outwith society to varying degrees, aren't immune to outside effects.
In effect, the Zoners show extreme mastery at the use of soft power in order to prevent the strands of their diplomatic web from breaking. Hard power, they lack, due to a lack of a disciplined organised governmental structure. Small, localised militias can be very capable, but only at certain tasks. The Zoners need to be very careful to avoid being crushed by those with so much more power, such as Liberty.
Now, I'm not going to get into a slagging match, since Jinx is looking for opinions on what the Zoners are or were.
Interestingly enough, they appear to be similar to various small groups in history with common goals, pioneers, settlers, explorers. They aren't big time traders. They are experts on deep space and ships, though, being permanently in the void, some never setting foot on dirt.
Also, can someone with more knowledge than me let me know where Zoner NPCs are spotted? Would I be right in saying that next to zero convoys actually fly through House space?
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And note, if we (Bretonia) invaded Gran Canaria, the Order would not assist against us. The Order/Zoner alliance, was born out of strife against the Nomads. The Order wouldn't attack humans anyway, other than the Bounty Hunters who attack first. Bretonia wouldn't attack the Order anyway, so that point is null.
The GMG and IMG are also too far away to lend assistance (whichever one it is that's allied).
And Doc, I noticed you were the one that mentioned Gran Canaria to the Bretonians in that diplomacy thread...
' Wrote:The GMG and IMG are also too far away to lend assistance (whichever one it is that's allied).
It's GMG. IMG are trade partners, not military allies. Besides, IMG wouldn't ever go to open war with Bretonia (yes, mistakes were made by player factions), since much of their business revolves around trade with Gateway, and the Bretonians' military vessels are parked right outside their main bases in Cambridge and other systems.
I'm gonna have to say I have a viewpoint that is most similar to that of Blunt and Rudo.
I'm not quite sure if it's been said already but, I think that they should have the current Military power they have now, I'd say in the current state of Sirius Politics the Zoners need what military they have in order to secure their neutrality and defend their Freeports from takeover.
So I guess in other words I think they should remain neutral and peaceful unless somebody is attacking them or threatening their stations.
And if you ask me, I think Zoners should always act a little wary of Outsiders, to a degree.