Question about Liberty Navy rights

[Durandal]

Yep.. probably would've been better RP form for that to take place over a private channel, but everybody makes mistakes. Or perhaps Morse there didn't want him to see it as a personal insult and kept it public intentionally. Either way, it's just RP and I'm not really fussed about it.

[JohnRambo]

Oh no, roleplaying. Yes, in RP, the [LN] primary fleet has authority over indies. OORPly no, nobody outside of [LN] high command has any authority over indies. It's a matter of roleplay, and it's kind of poor form to jump to the rules in your defense when somebody is playing their character.

This isn't abuse of power, it's Morse there acting things out as his roleplay dictates.

If everyone played the game as following NPC actions to the letter, this would not be a roleplay server at all.

Man this is getting weird. So now you come and say that IRP every primary guy has authority of indíes, but OORP and by server rules only the two highest in command do? Sorry but that doenst make any sense at all and would be either destined to cause lots of strife between officials and indies or be a way for the official faction to give themselves way more power over indies than what the server rules specifically limited it to. And IRP how would you justify that an ensign of the "primary fleet" commands the captain of a "secondary fleet" carrier?

In what you call RP I feel that you're seriously twisting things around there too. I was the one playing out my character doing canon navy RP when asking the hacker to surrender, and Morse was the one who interfered with my RP and started to pull rank on me, making it sound like he had authority over me, which he didnt. The only reason he gave was that him and the hacker "get along", which is hardly a sensible RP reason, and that he was primary fleet. This looks very much to me like the hacker was his oorp friend and he tried to misrepresent server rules to help him. Morse's RP status in no way dictates him to do any of that. So you are really seriously twisting things around here.

So Morse tells me he got authority over me ingame and when I ask on the forum he does a backward flip and apologiezes. Lythrilux who is also in [LN] also first says that they can do that and then also does a backward flip and apologized. Then you come and tell me that I was breaking up RP and jumped to rules, when actually it was Morse who broke up the canon RP I was doing with the lane hacker (I actually didnt attack him, I was talking to him as a navy should and didnt attack yet, and then HE was the one who attacked me after Morse had told me not to), and it was Morse who broke my RP and jumped to non existant "regs" that I should read up on. And after a short check on your posting history... surprise... it turns out you'Re also in the official [LN].

I thought this was sorted out when Morse and Lith apologized, but after your post I really think there is a need for admins to answer these questions:

1. Does everyone in the primary fleet have authority over indy LN according to server rules
2. Does everyone in the primary fleet have authority over indy LN in role play
3. Does the official [LN] leadership have the right to set indy LN peoples rep to red with navy on the grounds that they refused to stand down against canon RP enemies of the navy when order to do so by (a) first or second in command of [LN] (b) other members of [LN]
4. Does the fact that [LN] people claim that all of them have the authority of command over indies RP consitute an abuse of faction power. Cause there's at least 3 of them who did that right here.

[Sabru]

Oh no, roleplaying. Yes, in RP, the [LN] primary fleet has authority over indies. OORPly no, nobody outside of [LN] high command has any authority over indies. It's a matter of roleplay, and it's kind of poor form to jump to the rules in your defense when somebody is playing their character.

This isn't abuse of power, it's Morse there acting things out as his roleplay dictates.

If everyone played the game as following NPC actions to the letter, this would not be a roleplay server at all.

Man this is getting weird. So now you come and say that IRP every primary guy has authority of indíes, but OORP and by server rules only the two highest in command do? Sorry but that doenst make any sense at all and would be either destined to cause lots of strife between officials and indies or be a way for the official faction to give themselves way more power over indies than what the server rules specifically limited it to. And IRP how would you justify that an ensign of the "primary fleet" commands the captain of a "secondary fleet" carrier?

In what you call RP I feel that you're seriously twisting things around there too. I was the one playing out my character doing canon navy RP when asking the hacker to surrender, and Morse was the one who interfered with my RP and started to pull rank on me, making it sound like he had authority over me, which he didnt. The only reason he gave was that him and the hacker "get along", which is hardly a sensible RP reason, and that he was primary fleet. This looks very much to me like the hacker was his oorp friend and he tried to misrepresent server rules to help him. Morse's RP status in no way dictates him to do any of that. So you are really seriously twisting things around here.

So Morse tells me he got authority over me ingame and when I ask on the forum he does a backward flip and apologiezes. Lythrilux who is also in [LN] also first says that they can do that and then also does a backward flip and apologized. Then you come and tell me that I was breaking up RP and jumped to rules, when actually it was Morse who broke up the canon RP I was doing with the lane hacker (I actually didnt attack him, I was talking to him as a navy should and didnt attack yet, and then HE was the one who attacked me after Morse had told me not to), and it was Morse who broke my RP and jumped to non existant "regs" that I should read up on. And after a short check on your posting history... surprise... it turns out you'Re also in the official [LN].

I thought this was sorted out when Morse and Lith apologized, but after your post I really think there is a need for admins to answer these questions:

1. Does everyone in the primary fleet have authority over indy LN according to server rules
2. Does everyone in the primary fleet have authority over indy LN in role play
3. Does the official [LN] leadership have the right to set indy LN peoples rep to red with navy on the grounds that they refused to stand down against canon RP enemies of the navy when order to do so by (a) first or second in command of [LN] (b) other members of [LN]
4. Does the fact that [LN] people claim that all of them have the authority of command over indies RP consitute an abuse of faction power. Cause there's at least 3 of them who did that right here.

hey hey, thats the way things are. only the admins and devs know how it makes sense. the rest of us just do the best we can.

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[Durandal]

God this isn't rocket science and certainly doesn't require admin intervention. I already answered it clearly.

1 and 2: In roleplay the *Insert ANY official faction here* has authority over indies, but by the server rules you are only obligated to follow said authority if said *Insert official faction* member is the leader of the faction or in the second rank beneath leader.

3: This is subjective and depends entirely upon the situation. In a case like this, said member (Morse) would be chewed out and possibly demoted if his superiors found out. Which you could've of course done by throwing a message to [LN] high command but instead decided to complain about it here.

4: No. Claiming roleplay authority over somebody does not constitute an abuse of power. It would be an abuse of power if an official faction member claimed he could have you sanctioned for not following orders.

So please, to all up in arms about this, make an effort to comprehend what I'm actually saying before playing the fight the power card because it makes you feel cool. This also happens to be the way things have been since literally before I joined the server, so I hardly understand how shocking it is.

[JohnRambo]

God this isn't rocket science and certainly doesn't require admin intervention. I already answered it clearly.

You answered it as clearly as all the other guys who said things that totally contradicted each other.

1 and 2: In roleplay the *Insert ANY official faction here* has authority over indies, but by the server rules you are only obligated to follow said authority if said *Insert official faction* member is the leader of the faction or in the second rank beneath leader.

As I already said, this way of handling things is pre-programmed to cause stupid situations and squabbling. I refuse to believe that this is the official stance, because it would simply be too stupid in my eyes, and encourage primary fleet and secondary fleet players to fight about rank and authority.

If you maintain that this is the official stance, please point me to where this is written. If you dont, I will see it as your personal opinion, and possibly that of other [LN] players, or what they would like people to believe, without it actually being true.

I think what I've said isnt rocket science either and you should be able to understand it, if you wanted to.

3: This is subjective and depends entirely upon the situation. In a case like this, said member (Morse) would be chewed out and possibly demoted if his superiors found out. Which you could've of course done by throwing a message to [LN] high command but instead decided to complain about it here.

I have no desire to have Morse or anyone else chewed out of anything.

All I want is that the official faction and the indies know what is fact and what isnt, so there is less fighting among them.

My question also wasnt about what you answered about Morse being punished, it was about indies being punished (the punishment consisting of setting them red with the navy) for not obeying orders that they were given by people who claimed IRP that they are their superiors but who are not via rules.

4: No. Claiming roleplay authority over somebody does not constitute an abuse of power. It would be an abuse of power if an official faction member claimed he could have you sanctioned for not following orders.

If you say that you are someone's superior in the military and that you give them an order, it is implicit that they will suffer consequences if they dont obey. Even if they wont really suffer consequences, it's still and attempt of intimidation which is in my eyes similar to someone telling them they would get sanctioned. Because if the official faction is against you and has the power to set you red, that IS a sanction.

So please, to all up in arms about this, make an effort to comprehend what I'm actually saying before playing the fight the power card because it makes you feel cool. This also happens to be the way things have been since literally before I joined the server, so I hardly understand how shocking it is.

I have tried my best top understand what you are saying, and decided that it can hardly be true because its a totally stupid way of handling things unless you want official and indy players to be at each others throats. And no I'm not playing the fight the power card for what ever that means,and not asking to be cool. I'm asking the admins for an official answer because their's obviously so much disagreement and misinformation on this subject floating around, specifically in the [LN] as you can see by reading the answers here.

[Durandal]

That is your official answer and they will say the exact same thing as me, because what I am telling you is exactly what is outlined in the faction rights. I didn't say that I agreed with the system, but that is the way that it is set up. There is no need for any further discussion.

[JohnRambo]

Show me where it says that all official faction players are the superiors of all indies IRP.

[Durandal]

Perhaps I should rephrase my earlier statement - it doesn't say so anywhere, we roleplay it, as do most other official factions. You can roleplay authority over us too, it doesn't have anything to do with being official. Recognition comes with respect, if you want it go earn it. You're welcome to make a group of your own as the SFC have done and do things your way, or even push for official status yourselves.

Bear in mind however if you were to do that, we'd simply ignore it rather than make a scene about it, and continue to do things our way as freely as you're able to do yours.

IRP Authority is just that, RP. There aren't any faction rights at work there aside from leaders actually being able to act on them in extreme cases.

Instead of that I'd implore you to work with people and understand the reasons for their actions. If you're not interested in that, go ahead and play red is dead by NPC actions, but don't be surprised if there are people who do things differently by their own RP. The character you shoot up may be deeply in love with an official [LN] one, or perhaps an informant, or maybe just a long lost friend. Because that's what roleplay really is. Not just being another brainless NPC.

[Echo 7-7]

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4: No. Claiming roleplay authority over somebody does not constitute an abuse of power. It would be an abuse of power if an official faction member claimed he could have you sanctioned for not following orders.

If you say that you are someone's superior in the military and that you give them an order, it is implicit that they will suffer consequences if they dont obey. Even if they wont really suffer consequences, it's still and attempt of intimidation which is in my eyes similar to someone telling them they would get sanctioned. Because if the official faction is against you and has the power to set you red, that IS a sanction.
...

No it's not. Having your reputation adjusted to be hostile with a certain faction is not a sanction. Reputation adjustment requests are only processed by the Administration team in order to arbitrate over those requests, and prevent the use of that right to be used as a tool in oorp conflicts, as opposed to being a roleplay consequence as they are intended.

In the context of this game and server, sanctions are punishments imposed by Administrators for players breaking server rules. Reputation adjustments are consequences of roleplaying, not a result of breaking server rules.

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There was a sig here, once.

[JohnRambo]

...

4: No. Claiming roleplay authority over somebody does not constitute an abuse of power. It would be an abuse of power if an official faction member claimed he could have you sanctioned for not following orders.

If you say that you are someone's superior in the military and that you give them an order, it is implicit that they will suffer consequences if they dont obey. Even if they wont really suffer consequences, it's still and attempt of intimidation which is in my eyes similar to someone telling them they would get sanctioned. Because if the official faction is against you and has the power to set you red, that IS a sanction.
...

No it's not. Having your reputation adjusted to be hostile with a certain faction is not a sanction. Reputation adjustment requests are only processed by the Administration team in order to arbitrate over those requests, and prevent the use of that right to be used as a tool in oorp conflicts, as opposed to being a roleplay consequence as they are intended.

In the context of this game and server, sanctions are punishments imposed by Administrators for players breaking server rules. Reputation adjustments are consequences of roleplaying, not a result of breaking server rules.

They're listed in the sanction notices subforum.

Call it what you want, making someone believe that there will be consequences like being set red to navy because you're not following their non-canon RP orders is very much an abuse of power. When you dont even have that auhtority via server rules, even more so.

Perhaps I should rephrase my earlier statement - it doesn't say so anywhere, we roleplay it, as do most other official factions.

Perhaps you should also rephrase the part where you said that Morse was acting as his RP dictates it. Because you made it sound like acting as my superior was his RP via rules, just like its RP via rules that LN and LH are enemies and not allies.

Perhaps you and some of your fellow [LN] Morse and Lythrilux should generally be more careful in how you phrase things, because everything you say sounds like it's meant to mislead people into thinking that the faction rules give them authority over indies.

Forgive me if I detect a certain pattern in how Morse phrased "read up on regs", Lithrilux said "oh yeah officials have authority over indies", how you said "he was acting how his RP dictates", and how you said "That is your official answer and they will say the exact same thing as me, because what I am telling you is exactly what is outlined in the faction rights.".

That pattern correlates very well in how your faction decides that they will "RP as being superior of indies". Do everything to make people think that you have powers of authority that you dont actually have. Fogive me if that sounds vey much like systematic abuse of power by you guys.

You can roleplay authority over us too, it doesn't have anything to do with being official.

Morse justified his alleged authority as being "primary fleet", which is the official faction. And he's not the only one.

Recognition comes with respect, if you want it go earn it.

I'll tell you as soon as I see anything in the primary fleet which I think deserves respect, then. I never asked for anyone to follow my orders. What I asked for is that I can act like a navy officer without being threatened.

You're welcome to make a group of your own as the SFC have done and do things your way, or even push for official status yourselves.

No need. I can work very well together with other navy indies, most of them have a much better attitude than the primary fleet. Most of us give orders and receive orders from each other all the time, and we know that we can count on each other to act like the navy should, and we rarely let each other down. I was hoping such interactions were also possible with the primary fleet, but you're convincing me of the oposite.

IRP Authority is just that, RP. There aren't any faction rights at work there aside from leaders actually being able to act on them in extreme cases.

Small detail... leaders being able to act on them. Exactly. Not so small a detail afterall.

Instead of that I'd implore you to work with people and understand the reasons for their actions. If you're not interested in that, go ahead and play red is dead by NPC actions, but don't be surprised if there are people who do things differently by their own RP. The character you shoot up may be deeply in love with an official [LN] one, or perhaps an informant, or maybe just a long lost friend. Because that's what roleplay really is. Not just being another brainless NPC.

If you want to role play as a navy pilot, then you gotta act like a navy pilots act. Rules about that are made for a reason. FAction status is set for a reason. Navy pilots of one fleet dont declare themselves the superiors of another fleet, devoid of all justification, logic, or legal grounds. They can be in love with a pirate no problem. But they wouldnt parade that around on times square and order random law enforcement peopel to stand down without giving a better reason than "I'm primary fleet and I get along with this pirate".

I'd implore you to try to undertand that, and to try to understand the perspective of navy players who want to RP their characters in a realistic way. I'd also implore you to take a step back and get of your high official faction horse and take a good look at who is being brainless here.