Dear Jansen

[Treewyrm]

-snip-

This doesn't even merit a response. If you can't reply without putting words in my mouth for the sake of insulting me, then don't reply at all.

This is exactly the kind of thing I requested that you refrain from doing, to avoid further fueling the flames in this thread. Maybe it's time for a lock.

See, you had it wrong about guild Core before in another thread, and now you have it wrong again about the nomads. It's fine not to know about this or that, I for one have little to no clue about kusari house and so it's a subject I leave to people who are much more familiar about it, who have characters there, who have understanding of its history, lore, how factions there are connected to each other, what kind of RP had been in the past between them and shaping them into what they are, and so I wouldn't state something regarding it without being confident in having solid knowledge on the matter, but you on the other hand just drop some frivolously made baseless statements. You don't like it when someone puts word into your mouth, so how about not putting words into factions mouth and stating what they are without knowing them well?

Sure, the thread has long outlived its purpose anyway, and quite certainly had been derailed a couple of times too.

[Trogdor]

I didn't. All I said was that 1) they can't control others through power of suggestion, as Agmen suggested, and that 2) one nomad isn't supposed to be scary. I never said they outnumbered the humans, and I never said they weren't technologicaly superior. You invented that for the purpose of mocking me. And now you're doing it again. Please, just shut up.

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[Treewyrm]

I didn't. All I said was that 1) they can't control others through power of suggestion, as Agmen suggested, and that 2) one nomad isn't supposed to be scary. I never said they outnumbered the humans, and I never said they weren't technologicaly superior. You invented that for the purpose of mocking me. And now you're doing it again. Please, just shut up.

1) It's left at discretion of a player whom a nomad player interacts with. Some play that they resist influence and it's cool, some play along with it and sometimes it affects their character storylines. So yeah, there are varying degrees influence, largely depending on who the other char and whether the player would like to go with that. It had been so since the beginning there, and tons of stories focused are around that.

2) They weren't scary because of numbers really as they never had effective numbers to begin with. The 'scary' factor generally comes from their ability to infiltrate, mastery of cloaking technology and other stuff that many powerful forces in Sirius are after, whether for their own gain or to prevent mankind from being corrupted by it, or some other reasons that might be there. However PvP balance often translates back into RP, and hence the whole thing about "they're just space jellies". But now their old trademark ability comes back, and they're not quite easy targets anymore, they're back in business to terrorize civilian population.

I'm not after you personally, Trog. I may come around as rude and harsh sometimes, that is true, but I'm not after you specifically, it's just some things (but not all things, there are number of things I do agree with you even) that you say and that's it. As for telling me to shut up I don't think it's going to work like that.

[Jack_Henderson]

Guys, no one has a problem with scary Nomads.
Everybody has a problem with cheap-killing done by Nomad/Wilde players.

The first is cool and adds to rp.
The second one is a dick move of a player against a player and is unwanted. This one only adds frustration, grief and aggression.

I think this thread has however reached its goal.
Various faction leaders have posted that they are revising or installing internal rules and gentlemen's agreements.

So... I think it would be best if these little duels that started afterwards were stopped because they lead nowhere. The only thing they do is fuel the discussion again, which I think is not wanted at the moment.

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[Treewyrm]

Aye. I don't like cheap-killing from cloak, however I think the line is blurry there. The devil, as usual, is in the details. So let's have a constructive discussion.

Let's have some hypothetical scenarios: for example let's say a nomad ship uncloaks before a miner and drops a few lines of RP but there is no response. What then? In my opinion - chains go off and the target can be freely engaged. However this miner might see it as a cheap kill instead. Or say a transport with some interesting cargo (artifacts, human cargo such as vips, passangers, etc, valuable military equipment and such) passing through, a nomad uncloaks behind, CDs the trader, drops a line or two regarding trader's cargo (based on what that cargo is), a trader then proceeds to hammer cruise engine. There is nothing wrong about that, if I were that trader I'd be scared as hell and run for my life as fast as I could. Would it be a cheap kill then? Opinions? What other scenarios would be okay and what would be seen as clearly wrong?

[Jack_Henderson]

Let's have some hypothetical scenarios: for example let's say a nomad ship uncloaks before a miner and drops a few lines of RP but there is no response. What then? In my opinion - chains go off and the target can be freely engaged.

No problem with that. Someone who does not respond is generally shot. timestamps of messages and blue message just have to be apart by some "reasonable" time. Opinions may differ here.

Or say a transport with some interesting cargo (artifacts, human cargo such as vips, passangers, etc, valuable military equipment and such) passing through, a nomad uncloaks behind, CDs the trader, drops a line or two regarding trader's cargo (based on what that cargo is), a trader then proceeds to hammer cruise engine. There is nothing wrong about that, if I were that trader I'd be scared as hell and run for my life as fast as I could. Would it be a cheap kill then?

No. A transport that thrusts away from a "Damn, I have been CDed!" situation is fair game.


The cheapkill I am talking about is: cloaked ship stalking someone, waiting for someone to stand still and to be typetrapped. The he uncloaks, quick-1-line and screamer-snac, or dual nova combo. It has been done and obviously it is an absolute dick move.

That's the only thing that I complain about. Pretty much every other situation in which I can react before I get shot at is okay for me. Interactions in which I cannot interact because of invisibility advantage combined with surprise attack on the other side suck and cause the complaints.

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[Pancakes]

Good lord, just solve it internally like Haste suggested, and if you are proven to not be worthy it - just make it drop the core to 0, thus not allowing cheap kills but allowing usage of CDs for a fun encounter.

Also, I wish to make an honest question, can indie nomads use those cloaks as well?

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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

[Treewyrm]

Someone who does not respond is generally shot. timestamps of messages and blue message just have to be apart by some "reasonable" time. Opinions may differ here.

What would you personally consider a reasonable time there? Just curious whether it matches or close enough to what I think is.

The cheapkill I am talking about is: cloaked ship stalking someone, waiting for someone to stand still and to be typetrapped. The he uncloaks, quick-1-line and screamer-snac, or dual nova combo. It has been done and obviously it is an absolute dick move.

Totally agreed there. I too was annoyed to hear that happening. I also didn't like that some players would post in local while being cloaked, at some point it did look rather ugly, so I think a better approach is that local chat is prohibited while in cloak (can't make engagement notice while being cloaked), however PM is still in an option for some RP, overall meaning that to engage a nomad/wilde would have to first decloak, then drop engagement message and only then shoot. From what was said earlier on the subject it's clear it must not be near-instant, but related to the question above is what would be a time between essentially decloaking action and opening fire?

And something else while at it: would this also apply to generic cloaks too? Because at this point we're talking only about nomads/wilde cloaks, and not generics that have shorter charge up times. There never been any sort of specific rules or agreements regarding them as far as I could tell, but correct me if I'm wrong here. Snubs didn't have much time in cloak due to fuel, but caps had decent capacity depending on cargo hold of course. I've had plenty folks engaging my nomad character at an instant when dropping out of cloak (they'd drop engagement notice while being in cloaked and then uncloak) although that did not violate any rules I think.

Also, I wish to make an honest question, can indie nomads use those cloaks as well?

They can.

[Pancakes]

A) Normal cloaks are being re-done to use fuel based on ammo, thus stopping the horribly long time caps and transports can cloak, while letting fighters cloak for a time length that actually worth using a cloak.

B) I think a gentlemen agreement would be fine, but it will simply not last (especially since this is also open for indies) like the full nom-gun scorpion of 4.85. Best solution I can see is to simply put energy consumption on the cloaks by time. What I mean is that it will slowly gnaw the core, rather than take it out in split-seconds like cruise, thus allowing for shorter-termed cloak sessions ("Now you me, now you don't" type) to be used by ease without having your core at 0, however not letting you to stalk someone for a good 10 minutes and wait for him to sit still so you can /cloak and cheap kill.

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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

[Jack_Henderson]

What would you personally consider a reasonable time there? Just curious whether it matches or close enough to what I think is.

To make me content: long enough to allow me to write a line like "Julia: Oh my God, what is this?" and start spinning my ship to avoid being an easy target. That would be about 30 seconds.

To make me happy: allow me to give a 2nd line like an irp order to my mates.

And something else while at it: would this also apply to generic cloaks too?

It's a different way they are used that doesn't really facilitate that problem.
Cloaky snubs cannot sneak up. Their cloaking times are too short.
Useful "sneak in" cloaky ships are normally capships and logged in massive cap battles. In pure pvp, people do not really care about quick-uncloak and kills, I think. In pvp you expect to die and not get much rp.

The use of cloaks on nomads/wilde ships is kind of different. They frequently target non-pvp ships. And these are ofc much more prone to attacks, do not expect them, and the attacks take place in a non-pvp environment. I guess that's why the same action is judged completely differently.

I would not mind seeing the same sets of gentlemen's agreements for all cloaks, but self-restraint is more important when attacks against non-pvp vessels in non-pvp environments happen compared to pure pvp-competitive interaction.


Does that make sense?
It's really late here and I am not entirely sure whether I got my point across because I need to ZZzzzzzZZZzzzzzz

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