Hey Disco, get a grip

[Mímir]

Yes, Thyr, you do. Sometimes there are more angles to the same story, and to get a good view you need to move your own position a tiny bit.

I never said the "at least they create activity", I don't really care about that. I just flew with and against the group and noticed some of the interesting dynamics of mainly their opponents, and seeing sanctions and FR5's all over the place irks me a bit, because from my experience of this particular group, that treatment is unfair.

I created this thread because I thought it would be reasonable to discuss it. There is a tradition of unlawful factions policing their indies unreasonably, and I thought this would be a good occasion to bring it up. There's also the always relevant issue of language and how it is used to gauge factors that are totally independent from language. If you have a problem with it, no one is forcing you to post here.

To me, what I liked about disco (and yes, I am probably naïve) is the idea that it is open: Here's a sandbox for you to explore and make your mark on, a roleplay world full of opportunities. That's why it's frustrating to see inactive people throwing their weight around for the sake of just that, stomping out something that might develop. Now if you look back at Disco history, some of our finest factions were first created by players with broken English and no BB code skills. Some of the stories we still act out the aftermath of today were created by these players, who by today's standards would be brushed off as lolwuts simply because people don't have the ability to distinguish content from form. And that's also the problem here, people have a problem with the appearance or image of this group, rather than their concrete actions.

Does it really upset you so much to see handful of mismatched unlawful ID's that you think those players should be driven off the server?

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[Black Widow]

We are not saying be driven off the server , just use one id or go untagged!

Then from my POV there is no problem

[Mímir]

Well that's what Thyr said.

"You know what? Take your action elsewhere, bring the active playerbase over to Disco of Disco, or PTC Relaxed, or fech cares where, and do your mixed-ID PvP fests preceded by little to no RP there."

Only to follow it up with adding that he has no clue in what is actually going on, nor can he see any reason to actually find out, but his opinion is definitely right

Regarding their ID's, I am pretty sure they fixed that already a while back but I wouldn't know.

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[Thyrzul]

Okay, maybe you specifically weren't saying that, Mímir, but many others were, and this concept of finding something good not because it's good but simply because it exists is totally against (what I consider as) logic, irks me, and I personally find this way of thinking detrimental to the well-being of this server/community. This might have caused me some temper resulting in the way I wrote what I wrote.

I might not have first hand experience about this group (thinking of it a bit, I might have been a victim of them once or twice), but I still cannot fathom how can circumvention of ID/tech restrictions add to the general roleplay environment of the server. Furthermore if you find their situation unfair because of the actions of their opponents, then reporting said actions for the sake of keeping fairness in existence might also help your cause.

About openness: a roleplay world full of opportunities... yes, there are a lot but not an endless amount of opportunities. There are limits for the sake of realism and order, else we'd have chaos, as somebody else have already pointed out earlier. So to prevent chaos, there are rules, limitations and allowances, and as I understand all of us who decide to play here, by playing here we consent to either following them or getting sanctioned for not doing so. That doesn't mean, of course, that these limits restrict us to only a handful of options, I still find it to be a wide variety of opportunities we are granted to choose from, and in light of this, I find it reasonable that if even despite this some decide to circumvent these limits, others will find it unfair. Yes, Disco's world is open, but not endless.

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[|nfrared]

This is my take on this...situation.

Those guys using LR equipment, shooting at LR. That's fine... once. Then word gets out. Higher ups (Officials) get involved. They don't like being shot at with their own equipment. That's understandable. So far the situation as it has unfolded is a logical extension of the RP.

Then it gets a bit OORP. Those guys don't want to relinquish thier LR diplomacy, even though the Rogue bosses are calling for their heads because they got some dudes shot with their own guns. Effectively, these guys are pirates (as in pirate ID) now, but they don't want the negative reputation their actions have given them. So they continue to "pretend" to be Rogues because tech, diplomacy etc.

When you break it down like this it is easy to see what is wrong here. Just face the facts - Rogues that shoot Rogues don't stay Rogues. You are Pirates now. Embrace it instead of fighting it and the whole thing will fly straight from here.

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Shard - The Faceless One

[Mímir]

@infra:

Ok, I can respect that on the surface, but the problem is that when official faction rogues open up on indie rogues, they get to stay rogues. It's incredibly one-sided, one party holds all the power over the interpretation of the situation. The official faction alone decide if the encounter is a roleplay event between two competing gangs of the same affiliation that end up in tension that can be used as a platform for further roleplay or if it is a blatant oorp ID violation, you see? In this case, like so many before it, it is the official faction that chooses to escalate things, to make ultimate demands, "do this, or else...", and when they have to put force behind their roleplay, they call upon staff. It happened so many times it's not even funny.

The system is lopsided, and with no checks and balances in place (and more importantly when few/none official faction players feel they should be subjected to checks and balances) it creates undesired situations that results in admin involvement. If the system was designed differently, these situations could result in something positive. If official factions and their players were a bit more humble and less anal retentive, it would open the server up to more positive opportunities. It doesn't have to result in total chaos.

@Thyr:
I think fundamentally we agree but we look differently at the case at hand. I obviously agree that there are limitations, I just find it bothersome that official factions often makes it their chief duty to impose those limitations on other players that they might as well just leave alone. The desire for control is running wild, and it has always been the nature of discovery for those in a privileged position to resort to admin or sometimes even dev involvement to solve something that could and should be handled in roleplay. An insubordinate Rogue? Assassinate him, subject to his views or do something - don't deal with it oorply.

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[Moberg]

As a note for everyone who is upset about FR5s: It is not an ooRP sanction like a rule violation.
It merely indicates that your action or roleplay upset the official faction(s) inRP, resulting in a reputation change to reflect that the faction does not like you anymore. To ensure that it is feasible in roleplay, it also requires admin approval.
It is not something others do to upset you ooRPly, it is a mere consequence of your action or roleplay towards a certain faction. Nothing to get upset about.

If you think that the jurisdiction of the NPC faction should be different, you can go ahead and create your own faction. It will take a few months after the request to prove that you are worth being official, after which the admins will vote if you should be an official faction. In FR5s, all official factions must agree. I'm not sure if it is possible, but you might even get to a point where you challenge the officialty of a faction if you feel that it isn't worth being called official anymore.

[Mímir]

Well, it's FR5's followed by sanctions within the same day. It obviously leaves the impression that someone with a print screen button has been very upset with this group.

It could of course just be a coincidence. Sanction reports and FR5 requests submitted totally independent of one another, by different players, that get processed on the same day, within the same hour, by the same admin, but how likely is that?

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[Omi]

Well ok, can you elaborate?

It's definitely my experience, and I know a lot of other people share that. People log to be on the winning side.

Well, you know how me and a whole ton of others have always logged on the Liberty lawful (losing) side for, like, over half a year now?

Clearly you don't, or else you wouldn't suggest that that isn't the case.

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[Moberg]

Even though the same admin posted the sanction thread doesn't mean that it's solely this one admin deciding. Usually multiple admins decide before the sanction is posed. It is possible that they are from different days and the pile including both have been voted on and were ready to be processed.
There are simply too many factors to clearly decide if it's black or white.