Yeah, gonna go with erryone else here, keep this stuff rolling.
This doesn't really circumvent SRP, seeing as how you still have issues with powercore, not to mention the ships being exuberantly priced to compensate for their availability.
Plus, I'm absolutely gigantically biased here due to the fact you decided to make contact with the Congress, let alone getting me as your liaison.
Let the people who are sphincter shattered remain rectally ravaged, they'll eventually stop.
P.S. Yeah, the Valor was a wee bit sketchy. Mostly due to the inRP incompatibility between Gallic and Sirian armaments, engines, and general power stuff.
User was banned for: They will know.
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Warning, typos and mistakes are ahead. Writing from my phone.
If you look at the high-tech obnect, you will find:
1. Materials. Raw materials, which, obviously are to be gathered, and the bigger your object, the more of that you need.
2. Material technology. Raw materials are nlt simply cut, molten, glued together to make a detail. There is a huge variety of machining, pressing, forging techniques that are REQUIRED to make a detail with NEEDED properties. Drilling an inch hole is one thing, but try to make a 10 inch with a good precision.
3. Detail construction. Basically, whenever a detail is getting damaged, especially if it is an important detail that works under load, the only way is to recycle it. You can not fix it, like many other things that got damaged even slightly.
4. Detail arrangement. Basically what people understand under a "blueprint". Just have to say that construction is described by drafts (BPs), documentation, which includes the manufacturing, the assembly, the maintenence and so on and so forth. The "Blueprint" part could be imagined in a pile of thick journals, say, a meter tall when put one on another, when it comes to something like a battleship. Could be more. Transcontinental aircrafts consist of 1-2 million of details. Considering that future spaceships are to be more complex, I could only guess that things will get worse.
5. Manufacturing. There are good examples of RL tech that once being disassembled could not be assembled back without knowing the manufacturing technology. You just can not without damaging the object.
6. Resistance. Statical and dynamical loads, forces, torques. Take a wrong material, or wrong shaped detil and it will serve less than its original counterpart. If it will work at all and won't explode damaging surrounding stuff with shards. As for dynamical loads - cracks, they tend to grow, and do so until all of sudden things get really bad.
7. Maintenece. It takes time, it takes human power, it takes credits. If you don't know how to maintain you ship (the biger - the worse) it will eventually let you know when something brakes down.
8. Electronics. When damaged is to be recycled. You have your hull without brains, you can put new ones, but how would you write the software that is recognized by systems and that is working by correct algorhythms?
9. Something else that didn't cross my mind.
All in all, to develop something like a battleship from scratch it'd take centuries of experience, billions of credits for expensive research, modeling, absolutely expensive tools and facilities (And you can not assemble something big without precisely positioned mounts), labour, fails, tests, improvements, and all over again. The best you can do is:
1. Take damaged hull apart.
2. Make a frame of cheap modules, bought from dealer, that are produced on facilities and are open to market.
3. Slap hull parts over the frame.
4. Waste time, money, labour and end up with something like Bustard: huge but weak and powerless. Something that is far from being of a state of art like warships.
5. Try to sell it for ridiculous price (like Bustard) so yoiu could earn at least enough to cover expenses.
6. ???
7. Profit? No. No profit.
The same applies to anything but, say, racing vessels or something really tiny. Fighters are no, they are a state of art. You can not do a state of art unless you are a corporation with decades or centuries of experience and possess billions for expencive facilities to produce and assemble stuff.
What a group of junker enthusiasts is good for? They possibly could make some custom racers or utility ships. Again, buying frame and modules, because you are very unlikely to salvage something that dies in space (it does so violently), and slapping over hull parts, fins, etc.
This is my input on this matter. I have used some tiny bit of my studying knoledge here.
Well, I dont see anything wrong with your approach, honestly. I hung out with your salvager quite alot, and you were always inRP, even when people went full r-tard around you. You stuck around in fights, did your salvager job. I thought it was great. I loved seeing somebody else doing what I do, more or less, hanging around in Liberty, following the fights, being a witness to the Navy bigotry and unjustified violence against Junkers.
I considered your character solid.
As for the cap ships - i wish back the times when an ADMIN had to approve every single ship. The scumbaggery I have seen people commit with their brand-spanking-new Dreads is abhorrent! If you want a cap ship you had best worked your way there - the Navy is just that. NAVY. You do NOT haphazardly undock a dread and chase a fighter with it. You do NOT haphazardly undock a dread and harrass people with your new-found power. You do NOT, do NOT break liberty laws in a capital ship! You'd be dishonorably discharged right there.
The Navy has official factions, the navy has an NPC faction - there is no justification for a captain of a DREADNOUGHT to stay in charge of it as he f*cks over everything the Navy stands for.
As this game needs a money sink I'd say - if a dread is destroyed, it is GONE. Back to starflier like back in the day.
That'll solve several problems at once:
1) Your RP will be solid again when you salvage capital ships. There wont be a constant supply and it'll be a great salvager "SCORE!" moment.
2) New pilots risk losing their investments - if you throw a capital ship into a bad situation, you deserve being taught an RP lesson. A dread in a debris field is completely ooRP.
3) Your job will be well sought-after. You get paid by the RP-parts you salvaged. And maybe the Navy stops sh*t-talking Junkers for no reason, as they won't always have their massive hulks around to look down on other people on. They shouldnt try to escalate things, they should try to keep the peace.
I know this sounds just like a rant against the Navy, but be assured - i have no hard feelings toward them ooRP. But inRP they are a scourge due to their powertripping behavior.
I do not see how your RP took so much flak. I'll say it again, I liked Liz being around constantly providing RP. And I hope you got a good view at how we Junkers are treated, too.
The problem some people have with the Junker thing is that you, in case of the wrecks, interact with no one and gain something from it.
With this one it was mainly the: I'll watch 10 Valors blow up to rebuild one - how it looked - doesn't matter if it was then hauled to Puerto Rico or something that was just a bit weird.
And especially in an active warzone I wouldn't imagine the GRN just letting you rob half their Valor.
But I like it for smaller ships. Will help some people with repairs and srping some ships and it's nice to see Junkers around. EDIT: Not just smuggling/trading
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The RP itself is refreshing and the concept is pretty nice, add a ton of quality time invested into it and you get a nice end product.
I do have one thing to add, regarding usage of scrapped parts. The only issue I have with it, and the entire roleplay in general, is that I'm hoping you won't use those scrapped parts to reconstruct the ships and say, sell them on the black market, or worse - directly give it to a hostile faction (for example, salvaging a few Lynxes and giving them to Auxesia). Many people tried that in the past (not by salvaging), and it always received a lot of flak, especially from the faction whose tech is being given away. Here's why.
Player ships are not inRP assets. Otherwise Hessians would be a top military force with 30+ Jorms, Bretonia and Liberty would crush Gallia because of the playerbase advantage they have, etc. When you salvage those assets and turn them into inRP ones, a problem arises. A problem of mixing up apples and oranges, one is an ooRP thing while the other is inRP thing. On top of that, players with less PvP skill usually die much more often than aces so they're contributing to the salvaging part impactfully more. If you for example salvage a lot of Lynx parts from people that got bluemessaged (using the same example for the sake of simplicity), and you combine them into a functioning ship and sell it to the Navy or Auxesia, you can see why GRN would get angry.
Now I know you didn't do it yet, but just a friendly heads up. Or maybe I'm missing the entire point here and I'm horribly wrong, if that's the case please correct me. All in all, keep up the good work.
Personally I take umbrage with the idea of salvaging entire capital vessels at all: I've been involved in a few myself and honestly the RP behind them were sub-par to the point of not deserving of the vessel in question.
Heres the thing: capital vessels, battleships especially aren't so much as built as they are crafted. The sheer quantity of resources, the nuances that go into construction, the interpretation of the blueprints, and the protection and secrecy surrounding all of that which goes into a massive kilometer-long war-machine all point to the fact that the kind of thefts that people are talking about for their ships are frankly next to impossible, if not impossible.
Furthermore, taking an already-existing vessel yields similar backlash from the community- also for obvious reasons. Capital vessels have crews of hundreds or in some cases thousands of crewmembers just to keep them afloat- not to even mention rotating crews and support staff. Basically theres a lot of people involved, and the idea that somehow, someone's character is proficient enough at causing political discourse and implanting ideas into the heads of their totally 100% devoted crews that they can manage to persuade an entire ship full of people to betray everything they know and love of their home territory and people, and follow their captain wherever they please is, quite frankly laughable. In a real living world like the one the world of Disco is supposed to be: each of those crewmembers are their own thinking, breathing living beings with their own ideas and aspirations: their own lives. So the idea that all of them suddenly upended their lives to go gallivanting across Sirius is so ludicriously silly that it makes most people just suddenly lose all suspension of disbelief.
and yet we see these RP's all the time.
And I'm fairly certain the original Osiris is to blame:
Freelancer's plot allowed the theft of the Osiris to be lampshaded by some pretty simple phrasing:
Trent: "who makes off with an entire battleship?"
Orillion: "I do"
and most people think a badass one-liner like that can be enough to solve that particular plothole- but here's the thing: narratively it makes sense
Liberty was in turmoil, the inner ranks of the Liberty Government and the LSF were in disarray and infected and alot of usual duties (like overseeing experimental vessels) may have gotten left on the back burner in exchange for managing mass-disappearances and clandestine government overthrowing- meanwhile certain in-the-know LSF members were becoming increasingly aware and terrified of the situation, calling for drastic measures on the part of those that remained uninfected. They knew they were cornered, so they made a feint to the left, dashed right- and ran off with the best ship they could- which happened to be the Osiris.
It made sense(sort of)
Meanwhile, most modern SRP battleships are just: "Oh, I don't like this guy's leadership, so ima leave and take my massive hulking deathmachine of which there are only in-lore 5-6 of in existence with me." -- Do we start to see the issue here?
Osiris' betraying the Order to go to Liberty, Core heavy capitals running away to become their own factions, entire Maltese or Corsair or Rheinland fleets betraying the very ideals of their respective homeworlds to go pretend to be allies with their former mortal enemies-- the impossible has become commonplace in Discovery- everyone is their own special snowflake, nobody is normal, there is no mundane and there's absolutely no such thing as a flawed character anymore ( everyone playing mary-sue self-insert characters isn't conducive to a high-quality story environment. Just saying.)
And this is not to offer negative commentary on any RP's I may be perceived to be alluding to: I haven't read enough about any recent discovery roleplay to offer true commentary or critique on them but when literally everyone is trying to stand out and do something unique, the exciting becomes mundane, the mundane becomes obscene, the obscene becomes boring and unoriginal.
There has to be RP justification for your character's actions but there also has to be a logical backing of facts. The Osiris could do it because of it's circumstances. Fine, whatever
But this crap we have now where 2 pages of RP and some utterly ludicrously weak justification for reason to run away with a Warship has gotten to eye-roll levels of stupidity.
If you can be original with it and have enough RP for everything to make sense- as well as the help of a multitude of other people then, fine. Go right on ahead with your battleship theft/construction. Otherwise, prepare to be sneered at by a lot of people.
Sombra, best of luck to you- sounds like you're actually trying.
[ sci·am·ach ]
/sīˈamək/
A simple, angry man casually working his way through life on a personal quest to acquire copious amounts of street cred.
I was going to make a big long post, but @Swallow and @Scourgeclaw have pretty much summed up everything I was going to say. The idea that any sort of cap bigger than a gunboat - maybe a cruiser - could be salvaged without a whole ton of money and effort the size of which no individual or small group could possibly hope to come up with is wholly unbelievable.
(11-11-2016, 09:58 PM)Scourgeclaw Wrote: Personally I take umbrage with the idea of salvaging entire capital vessels at all: I've been involved in a few myself and honestly the RP behind them were sub-par to the point of not deserving of the vessel in question.
Heres the thing: capital vessels, battleships especially aren't so much as built as they are crafted. The sheer quantity of resources, the nuances that go into construction, the interpretation of the blueprints, and the protection and secrecy surrounding all of that which goes into a massive kilometer-long war-machine all point to the fact that the kind of thefts that people are talking about for their ships are frankly next to impossible, if not impossible.
Furthermore, taking an already-existing vessel yields similar backlash from the community- also for obvious reasons. Capital vessels have crews of hundreds or in some cases thousands of crewmembers just to keep them afloat- not to even mention rotating crews and support staff. Basically theres a lot of people involved, and the idea that somehow, someone's character is proficient enough at causing political discourse and implanting ideas into the heads of their totally 100% devoted crews that they can manage to persuade an entire ship full of people to betray everything they know and love of their home territory and people, and follow their captain wherever they please is, quite frankly laughable. In a real living world like the one the world of Disco is supposed to be: each of those crewmembers are their own thinking, breathing living beings with their own ideas and aspirations: their own lives. So the idea that all of them suddenly upended their lives to go gallivanting across Sirius is so ludicriously silly that it makes most people just suddenly lose all suspension of disbelief.
and yet we see these RP's all the time.
And I'm fairly certain the original Osiris is to blame:
Freelancer's plot allowed the theft of the Osiris to be lampshaded by some pretty simple phrasing:
Trent: "who makes off with an entire battleship?"
Orillion: "I do"
and most people think a badass one-liner like that can be enough to solve that particular plothole- but here's the thing: narratively it makes sense
Liberty was in turmoil, the inner ranks of the Liberty Government and the LSF were in disarray and infected and alot of usual duties (like overseeing experimental vessels) may have gotten left on the back burner in exchange for managing mass-disappearances and clandestine government overthrowing- meanwhile certain in-the-know LSF members were becoming increasingly aware and terrified of the situation, calling for drastic measures on the part of those that remained uninfected. They knew they were cornered, so they made a feint to the left, dashed right- and ran off with the best ship they could- which happened to be the Osiris.
It made sense(sort of)
Meanwhile, most modern SRP battleships are just: "Oh, I don't like this guy's leadership, so ima leave and take my massive hulking deathmachine of which there are only in-lore 5-6 of in existence with me." -- Do we start to see the issue here?
Osiris' betraying the Order to go to Liberty, Core heavy capitals running away to become their own factions, entire Maltese or Corsair or Rheinland fleets betraying the very ideals of their respective homeworlds to go pretend to be allies with their former mortal enemies-- the impossible has become commonplace in Discovery- everyone is their own special snowflake, nobody is normal, there is no mundane and there's absolutely no such thing as a flawed character anymore ( everyone playing mary-sue self-insert characters isn't conducive to a high-quality story environment. Just saying.)
And this is not to offer negative commentary on any RP's I may be perceived to be alluding to: I haven't read enough about any recent discovery roleplay to offer true commentary or critique on them but when literally everyone is trying to stand out and do something unique, the exciting becomes mundane, the mundane becomes obscene, the obscene becomes boring and unoriginal.
There has to be RP justification for your character's actions but there also has to be a logical backing of facts. The Osiris could do it because of it's circumstances. Fine, whatever
But this crap we have now where 2 pages of RP and some utterly ludicrously weak justification for reason to run away with a Warship has gotten to eye-roll levels of stupidity.
If you can be original with it and have enough RP for everything to make sense- as well as the help of a multitude of other people then, fine. Go right on ahead with your battleship theft/construction. Otherwise, prepare to be sneered at by a lot of people.
Sombra, best of luck to you- sounds like you're actually trying.
That's a neat excourse, obviously showing a bit of frustration about the recent SRP'd battleships. Since I literally told in the OP that I am leaving capital ships out of the concept, I'd be thankful to not turn this thread into a discussion of who deserves a battleship and who not. I was basically asking for feedback of the current changes I made to the concept.
I was intially going to comment some things you wrote, as some things are, as you said, clearly on a cba-attitude, I don't think there is much to gain from a discussion about judging other people's quality/subjective interests.
(11-11-2016, 09:13 PM)Swallow Wrote: Warning, typos and mistakes are ahead. Writing from my phone.
If you look at the high-tech obnect, you will find:
1. Materials. Raw materials, which, obviously are to be gathered, and the bigger your object, the more of that you need.
2. Material technology. Raw materials are nlt simply cut, molten, glued together to make a detail. There is a huge variety of machining, pressing, forging techniques that are REQUIRED to make a detail with NEEDED properties. Drilling an inch hole is one thing, but try to make a 10 inch with a good precision.
3. Detail construction. Basically, whenever a detail is getting damaged, especially if it is an important detail that works under load, the only way is to recycle it. You can not fix it, like many other things that got damaged even slightly.
4. Detail arrangement. Basically what people understand under a "blueprint". Just have to say that construction is described by drafts (BPs), documentation, which includes the manufacturing, the assembly, the maintenence and so on and so forth. The "Blueprint" part could be imagined in a pile of thick journals, say, a meter tall when put one on another, when it comes to something like a battleship. Could be more. Transcontinental aircrafts consist of 1-2 million of details. Considering that future spaceships are to be more complex, I could only guess that things will get worse.
5. Manufacturing. There are good examples of RL tech that once being disassembled could not be assembled back without knowing the manufacturing technology. You just can not without damaging the object.
6. Resistance. Statical and dynamical loads, forces, torques. Take a wrong material, or wrong shaped detil and it will serve less than its original counterpart. If it will work at all and won't explode damaging surrounding stuff with shards. As for dynamical loads - cracks, they tend to grow, and do so until all of sudden things get really bad.
7. Maintenece. It takes time, it takes human power, it takes credits. If you don't know how to maintain you ship (the biger - the worse) it will eventually let you know when something brakes down.
8. Electronics. When damaged is to be recycled. You have your hull without brains, you can put new ones, but how would you write the software that is recognized by systems and that is working by correct algorhythms?
9. Something else that didn't cross my mind.
All in all, to develop something like a battleship from scratch it'd take centuries of experience, billions of credits for expensive research, modeling, absolutely expensive tools and facilities (And you can not assemble something big without precisely positioned mounts), labour, fails, tests, improvements, and all over again. The best you can do is:
1. Take damaged hull apart.
2. Make a frame of cheap modules, bought from dealer, that are produced on facilities and are open to market.
3. Slap hull parts over the frame.
4. Waste time, money, labour and end up with something like Bustard: huge but weak and powerless. Something that is far from being of a state of art like warships.
5. Try to sell it for ridiculous price (like Bustard) so yoiu could earn at least enough to cover expenses.
6. ???
7. Profit? No. No profit.
The same applies to anything but, say, racing vessels or something really tiny. Fighters are no, they are a state of art. You can not do a state of art unless you are a corporation with decades or centuries of experience and possess billions for expencive facilities to produce and assemble stuff.
What a group of junker enthusiasts is good for? They possibly could make some custom racers or utility ships. Again, buying frame and modules, because you are very unlikely to salvage something that dies in space (it does so violently), and slapping over hull parts, fins, etc.
This is my input on this matter. I have used some tiny bit of my studying knoledge here.
That contains some interesting points, however, it is also very much beyond the level of knowledge and vocabulary I could provide to make use of it inRP. While in-depth knowledge about stuff you're RPing about is always a good thing, I don't want to make a science about things that are supposed to bring not only the participants but also myself fun. For example, I'm already struggling with the adaption of the nomad behavior for the Vagrants. In that specific case I'm lacking the colorful vocabulary I'd need to make my Vagrant-stuff looking less... human-ish. On a more subjective point of view, I don't know many people that enjoy reading long walls of gibberish. In an abstract way, the same would count for making the blueprints. Yes, I will definitely make it as professionell as it is possible to me. I think I have especially a hand for the graphical stuff, as I like to do pixel-art-ish graphics for what I have in mind.
Aside from all that, I have a feeling of those things being completely different or at least easier in a dystopian future at least 1000 years in the future, if not even more. Let's not forget about two things that are part of the game: 1. You can repair your ships at any station. 2. Nano-Bots. The latter is definitely part of the roleplay-environment, although people can argue about the instant-repair mechanic behind it, with both things.
Nevertheless, thanks for typing all that, Swallol. It was giving me some pushes in alternate directions, however I don't know yet how to implement the things I came up with during the spontan brainstorming.
(11-11-2016, 09:23 PM)Antonio Wrote: The RP itself is refreshing and the concept is pretty nice, add a ton of quality time invested into it and you get a nice end product.
I do have one thing to add, regarding usage of scrapped parts. The only issue I have with it, and the entire roleplay in general, is that I'm hoping you won't use those scrapped parts to reconstruct the ships and say, sell them on the black market, or worse - directly give it to a hostile faction (for example, salvaging a few Lynxes and giving them to Auxesia). Many people tried that in the past (not by salvaging), and it always received a lot of flak, especially from the faction whose tech is being given away. Here's why.
Player ships are not inRP assets. Otherwise Hessians would be a top military force with 30+ Jorms, Bretonia and Liberty would crush Gallia because of the playerbase advantage they have, etc. When you salvage those assets and turn them into inRP ones, a problem arises. A problem of mixing up apples and oranges, one is an ooRP thing while the other is inRP thing. On top of that, players with less PvP skill usually die much more often than aces so they're contributing to the salvaging part impactfully more. If you for example salvage a lot of Lynx parts from people that got bluemessaged (using the same example for the sake of simplicity), and you combine them into a functioning ship and sell it to the Navy or Auxesia, you can see why GRN would get angry.
Now I know you didn't do it yet, but just a friendly heads up. Or maybe I'm missing the entire point here and I'm horribly wrong, if that's the case please correct me. All in all, keep up the good work.
I don't agree with some points here. Who is in the position to tell what is inRP and what not? If GRN| (official) loses five Valors in Magellan, is that suddenly considered as "never happened"? I think that's a cheap way of ignoring the results of one's own actions. We basically had a similar discussion on this topic already in another thread, five months ago, where you made the statement "it's just a blue". That's not always the case, and on this, I guess there will never be a unity in the community. Some will say "It's just a blue without consequences" while others will say "It's an RP server and every action, from giving a single shot at something up to destroying a capital ship of an official faction are taking place in this roleplay-environment", and I'm one that shares the latter opinion. Now that hasn't to be neccessarily good or bad, but it's different, and most people that answered to this concept thread during the day before my first response were basically right with "You can't make everyone happy." - That's basically with everything you do, be it on the forum or ingame. Some people will insist on some SRPs being unjustified or beyond reasonable logic, while others will say it's okay, because even with such a massive bunch of known lore, Freelancer is still in a far away future, in a dystopy, where people are thousands-of-blues-surviving-badasses or underdogs. There is so much interpretation, imagination, representation and so much lacking clarity about what is inRP and what not. People ask if IDs are inRP. People ask if Junkers can pirate in Omega-3. People have totally differen opinions on how many people work on a ships of different sizes. Look up the factions that actually wrote how many people usually operate a single gunboat, and then look at the model, how many windows or seats it has in the cockpit. There is so many things just open for interpretation for the players, and so it totally doesn't matter whether it's just a blue or more. I see nothing to gain from an argument about that, aside from toxic people joining and doing what they can the best.
That's basically the point where I will definitely piss of people by saying "Everything you do ingame can be considered inRP, no matter if you're official or not", because everything can be picked up ingame and the forum and used as an opportunity to roleplay around it. So here I take the debris of any ships and gather them. That includes even guys that sundive/planetdive/self-mine close to me. It, however, will not contain debris caused during the Re-engaging times of events or NPC debris.
To answer your concern, however: What do you think will a freelancing group of people do with quasi-stolen technology? They are vultures, like Junkers, and that kind of inRP-work simply contains the theft of debris - as the debris where someones belonging before. That doesn't leave many opportunities open, don't you think? Option one would be contacting the owner/faction and make a deal for returning the stuff. That's what happened with Auxesia. And to be frank, I don't care whether the reasoning behind that decision was more because of inRP or because of ooRP concerns of having other people playing around with one's toys. As long as an inRP action causes inRP results, that's totally okay. Will GRN| be mad about stolen Lynxes? Yes, inRP in any case. OoRP? Welp, it's not like anyone should care about that kind of attitude. It's a game. You may can lead a faction, but the stuff isn't your stuff. There is only so much you can limit ingame, and one shouldn't limit everything. If Scyllas were still limited to SRPs, Lolberty wouldn't have much to do ingame.
However! Just as a fair reminder here: People don't need to use my concept's offer to get a ship of a foreign faction. I only offer a ramp of explanation here. You don't need to SRP a Freelancer Lynx. A backstory to it would be nice, yes, but it doesn't have to be.
Now that I think about it, I'm curious how many people in Aoi have authentic RP-explanations of the ships their use. I know there are undoubtly some of them, but I'm curious if all of them are supported with a background. I'm talking only about the ships, not the characters, as many characters have dots, colons and exclamation marks in their names.
Another thing to keep in mind: IDs have certain technerfs with certain ships. I doubt Auxesia has Gallic Tech in their ID. I think the people using this offer will mostly regulate themselves with what they want to buy and what ID they use with it.