[sarcasm]
Thanks seems like I can't fly a bomber.
[/sarcasm]
:lol::lol:
Most bombers don't turn much faster than a GB, so CDing his turns doesn't help you much since he already has you on his screen. When he makes long e-kill jousts you simply can't stay on the side since the speed difference is not enough. If you try to stay really close the instant hit feature of GB missiles comes into play.
So with 1 bomber there is no way to "force turret view". With 2 it is possible yes. Both need to have CDs and use them a lot.. which is not always the case.
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Quote:The ammo limitation would make the missiles in gunboats (my experience) nerfed versions of the ones in fighters. You would have a lower damage missile, with limited ammo, and if you use the typical 2 missile turrets, "only" 35 shots if you group them.
Nerfed?
What about the much better tracking, almost instant hit from close up and damage that is basically the same as fighter missiles on Ku/Bret ones and higher on Dragonflies. "only 35 shots" when ANY of those insta kills a vanilla ship. And 2-3 disarm anything.
The result would be that people won't spam them on shield but wait until shield gets down.
But after talking with McNeo I can agree that limiting the missile turret slots to 2 per ship is a better solution.
Make missile turrets class 6 . And give GBs 4 slots that can mount class 8 only and 2 that can mount both class 6 and 8. Or switch the numbers if you think the more limited should have higher number.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
the topic of the thread is "slightly" derailed ... it was about ballistic missiles that i believe are unguided, high payload missiles ( as it was mentioned before - sort of ... minirazors with ammo on gunslots )
a dumbfire missile may really be an option, - and no one can say that its overpowering much as long as the damage is somewhat reasonable.
about missiles on warships. - turrets are turrets - and allthough i don t know how to mod those things... i don t think its possible to have turrets eat up ammo. - missiles and torpedos however are a different hardpoint. - and we won t be able to redesign hardpoints on all warships.
if it was possible to add ammo to guns ( which turrets are ) - we could aswell design really really powerful battleship anticapship turrets with huge projectiles and awesome damage and a superior range.... that use ammo ( like burning out a circuit upon firing or eating up a special high capacity battery - however one wants to justify an energy weapon to use ammo )
all in all, i agree with mcneo though... of course gunboats range from 4 ( kusari GB ) to 8 turrets ( keepers GB ) - so its hard to set a reasonable limit for a gunboat, especially as it cannot really be set into the rules.
a little piece of nastyness there...
factions promoted the view that "smaller ships = better RP" .... and so, many a players fly fighters. - the natural and perfectly logical reaction is that those that want to fight those factions use weapons that can overwhelm those ships. - and so, a gunboat with 4 missile turrets is perfect to take down those people, - but is useless against a bigger ship ( which those factions are reluctant to fly or do not have at all ) - but that is not the fault of the one in the gunboat... he cannot make the decission that his enemies fly fighters... and he cannot be blamed if he attacks a group of fighters. ( one cannot say that its unsportive to attack 2 - 3 VHFs in a single gunboat )
so, i do not htink that gunboat missiles are overpowered. - i am really afraid to say that ... in order to fight such a vessel, one must deploy a gunboat with anti warship guns. ( yes, that is slightly promoting the purchase of capital ships )
so, being in a pure fighter group and being attacked by a pure antifighter gunboat is - bad luck. ( if the gunboat had anti warship weapons, the fighters would most probably eat it up ) - however, i wonder how many gunboat captains complain that they had been attacked by anti warship loadouts while they had only missiles. ( in that case, one would blame the gunboat captain for his lack of foresight ) - but thats the other side of the coin.
Yeah.. tell that to Xenos... to bring out the capships. Guess why Spear posted what he did?
Quote:so, i do not htink that gunboat missiles are overpowered. - i am really afraid to say that ... in order to fight such a vessel, one must deploy a gunboat with anti warship guns. ( yes, that is slightly promoting the purchase of capital ships )
As you said.
But if you try to understand me I'm not saying they should not be good against fighters.. it's their job.. but they should be reasonably good, not uber They are reasonably good when you use 2..they are uber if you use more.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
yes, but reasonable and uber is in the eye of the beholder. - what one person thinks is pressing the button of doom, - is not as easy as it might seem for another person. some people may really be challenged to dodge enemy fire, evoid possible stones and such and fire the missiles at the right time, - cause you cannot fire them at any time from any angle to effectivly make use of them.
its a bit like missiles on fighters. - since i m horrible with guns, i haven t even practiced much. - but i think i m quite OK with missiles. i score fairly many hits with them, even if its only one vs. one. - and yes, i use them like a doomstick. - i press the button without much aiming, cause i just launch them at a time and distance that i believe is ok - and they often find their target. - i don t have much pvp, but in the last pvp, i hink i had a good hit ratio of around 1/3 of the missiles. ( which isn t bad )
other people consider missiles on fighters to be an utter waste of space, cause they are either better with guns - or do not have the feeling to shoot them at the right distance at the right time.
now i think fighter missiles do not need an improvement and that any improvement will make it very easy for me to hit more than 33%.
if i start looking at the whole issue from other peoples persective though... there are many that are not successful with missiles. - now, if they were indeed improved, - i would prolly hit a little more, but others would hit a little more, too. - but it works the other way round, too.
lets say, i am brilliant with gunboat missiles, and i think they are way too easy to hit with. - and i think i am objective of course, cause otherwise i wouldn t mention it. - so i would say - "dang, its like pressing a button and blowing stuff up, - way too easy" - now others may not be able to do so... but when we now nerf them down.... i, myself might now think that its ok... missiles hit at a reasonbale rate - but others who hit at a reasonable rate before will hit below average now.
As Mjolnir said, we had a chat about it and came to the conclusion that two slots on each gunboat which could mount missiles as well as guns would be okay.
But I think I made this point aswell in the chat, that each gunboat would need to be means tested to find out where missile turrets are most effective on each different gunboat model. The reason for this is that it took me two weeks to find the best place to mount two basic missiles on a Corsair gunboat while finding the perfect balance of loadout.
However, a solution for maximum effectiveness and coverage is giving each gunboat the specific missile capable slots on the horizontal axis at the front of the ship. This puts them as close to the target as possible when jousting and gives them full coverage of each side of the ship. As most turn horizontally and not vertically, this is probably better. Also, smoke trails from the top slot tend to block the camera and hinder the aiming of the pilot.
Besides that small concern, I reckon the dedicated slot idea is the best one to go with.
Jinx makes a good point too, which is one reason why I am opposed to ammunition limits or changing the statistics. A limit on the amount mountable would not affect the hit ratio, just affect the amount of damage that could be dealt. Which is the aim here, I think.
The gunboat missile turrets should simply use ammo (@Jinx: Yes, it's as possible as giving a gun cruise disrupting effect). The gunboat itself has enough space for a good amount of missiles. Now, the ammo limits are way too low for a gunboat, but the constants apply for every ship regardless of class. My idea: Buff up the constants up to 1700 (Or whatever the biggest battleship hold is) and make all ballistics use ammo. Lucky that decimals are allowed within the "volume" variable in the .ini files. Missiles should use 0.5 cargo, Torpedoes 0.8, CMs 0.1, Mines 0.7, GB missiles 0.6, Cruiser missiles 0.9, BS missiles 1 and Flak should take up .4 cargo. It's way more realistic this way and allows one to get an individual loadout by ammo (Defensive or offensive ballistics setup? You decide!).
I haven't played Discovery mod online for very long, but I have played it for quite a while in the single player.
I have come to the decision that missiles and mines, as they are, are utter rubbish. Starkillers aren't any better.
If I have to spend money on ammo for something, I expect it to be better than a gun, which doesn't require ammo. But no. Lash's Wolfhound (which accelerates and turns like a brick glued to the floor) can easily dance around any missiles the NPCs have fired at him without using countermeasures. I find this strange that a missile can't outmaneuver a heavy fighter. For a little while, I had a missile launcher. The missiles (which were supposed to be the more accurate variety) NEVER HIT except for when I fired them at point-blank range. And then I'm caught in the blast radius. Even then, the missile has barely scratched his hull or done literally nothing to his shields. I'm just as likely to hit with a Starkiller torpedo as I am with a missile, and when Lash tries this against a Defender, IF the 'killer hits, it doesn't even hurt the Defender any more than a single gun volley would. And mines aren't able to hit anything. Even when my foe is directly behind me, the mine never hits, instead wandering around the battlefield like the aforementioned lost puppy.
I'm better off using guns the whole way. I don't have to waste money buying ammo for them. If I have to spend money for every use of a weapon, I expect it to actually do something.
Missiles, mines, and low-level torpedoes DEFINATELY need a MAJOR buff in order to be worth their while.