Tokugawa...

[~Chio]

My dude this is going to be a waste of time but if you need it that much? Aight.

A experienced player in a sarissa or Togo against a Tokugawa that doesn't even know how to blindfire will win even if the toku had 4 heavies shooting forward. The change barely affects this since the experienced player would dodge most if not all of those shots from the 4th heavy anyway.

Storta is a hard thing to hit and so is the donau to be honest. Get BCs, they're meant to kill cruisers, battleships actually aren't and so they shouldn't be able to reliably kill cruisers. Or just get a takeda because the thing can be better than both of those cruisers.

Oh and another thing when talking about skill. Just because some people aren't as good as others doesn't mean things won't get balanced so the skilled players don't abuse something. Those people that aren't good can get better, those that are good, well they can't really get worse.

I don’t doubt you’re right, good points.

[Spectre]

It still begs the question, though, of how exactly the Tokugawa is a 'cruiser killer'. I personally have never seen a Tokugawa kill a cruiser player unless they either cruised up on them or the cruiser player genuinely was completely inept. It just doesn't happen. Cruisers have a thruster that propels them 40m/s faster than any heavy battleship in the game, which gets them out of range of secondaries pretty quickly. Spamming four hellbores forward, or chainfiring literally anything is something that any heavy battleship (or any battleship in the game) can do with relative ease. The Valor, the Bismarck, the Redemption, the Legate, the Ish'tar. All of these can very effectively chainfire like any Tokugawa and still hit their targets.

The Tokugawa's shape is another thing. I won't argue that it doesn't have a good shape. It does. It's got a beautiful thinness to it, and it's part of the design that makes it work. It has less hull than a typical heavy BS, beating only the Legate. It's a heavy battleship with medium battleship characteristics, which is beautiful and makes it work without breaking it too much.

Reducing the Tokugawa's forward firepower to give it aft coverage of a fat, heavy battleship ass isn't the solution to solving an alleged 'cruiser killer' capability. It's how you murder the capability of a genuinely decent heavy battleship by claiming that it can do something that any other heavy battleship can already do.
I'm not saying that it's an unreasonable choice but there need to be better reasons and facts behind it than 'some guy forgot to use his thruster and he got his ship blown out from underneath him'.

---

#BringBackTheCommonwealth

=CR=-----IN|G
----
A plurality is not a majority, and a majority is not everybody.

---

Spec's RP Consortium
V-3X | CV-Montu | Fort Murray
Unum pro Omnibus, Omnes pro Uno

Your signature grew too big, I helped downscale it. ~Vex
Your adjustment grew too big, I helped downscale it. ~Spectre

[Black Smoke]

This literally has little to nothing to do with cruisers. The ability to easily kill light battleships such as Togo and sarissa is why the forward firepower was nerfed.

[Spectre]

A experienced player in a sarissa or Togo against a Tokugawa that doesn't even know how to blindfire will win even if the toku had 4 heavies shooting forward. The change barely affects this since the experienced player would dodge most if not all of those shots from the 4th heavy anyway.

I don't want to accuse you of talking in circles, but clarification is needed. I expect any light battleship to easily be able to dodge fire from a heavy. If there's a problem I'm not seeing there, please point it out. Otherwise, the change only hurts Tokugawa players.

---

#BringBackTheCommonwealth

=CR=-----IN|G
----
A plurality is not a majority, and a majority is not everybody.

---

Spec's RP Consortium
V-3X | CV-Montu | Fort Murray
Unum pro Omnibus, Omnes pro Uno

Your signature grew too big, I helped downscale it. ~Vex
Your adjustment grew too big, I helped downscale it. ~Spectre

[~Chio]

Frankly there are lot of other heavy battleships that can kill light battleships with "ease" - I already said about Gallia-Bretonia war, and I don't care to repeat it again.

Light Battleships are light enough to dodge those hits, which is reason they're light, you don't even need to be an experienced player in order to dodge MOST of them. Of course, if you're facing a player that's more experienced than you, doesn't matter which ship classes we are talking about, you are gonna get destroyed. Tokugawa might be one of few battleships/dreads that have four heavy slots, but three can shoot forward. Do I require to genuinely give here dodging lessons in order to expound what the problem is?

Now I'm confused about this. Look at what Durandal said.

It was actually the Tokugawa's ability to hunt cruisers which made this change happen. Four forward heavies was deemed to be too much with its thin forward profile. It was a very minuscule buff for the Tokugawa in the Bismarck matchup, but that wasn't the intent behind the change. @Black Smoke is definitely more qualified to comment here, so I'll leave the rest to him.

But Smoke is also talking about Light Battleships here, this is giving me a thought that you guys didn't even agree for what reason forward power should be nerfed. One is talking about Cruisers, second about Light Battleships, EVEN THOUGH both of those classes are more than capable to dodge hits which is reason they're called "Cruisers" and "Light Battleships", not to behave like Heavy Dreadnoughts with a very low powercore.

What would you expect from a superior class of a warship, if you get trapped into a very small deadly range, just like you would get into range of a Valor with a Dunkirk, if the ship is having that certain loadout. You are dead, but if you have range, you are not really dead. Looks like I cared to write it for the billionth time.

[Banned player t202085]

Tokugawa was unbalanced

---

User was banned for: https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...tid=202085
Time left: (Permanent)

[~Chio]

Tokugawa was unbalanced

ok

---

[TheShooter36]

Toku was op to the point it could dodge as if its a light battleship while having a proper heavy's characteristics. It can still dodge that good. However it has to make -surprise- loadout choices and sacrifice in one area or other. You talk about Valor @~Chio however you forget that Valor is one of the less agile ships around. Its all about that 4 Hellbore+pulse gimmick and it has counters. Valor is completely vulnerable to attacks from rear and once any BS sticks to its rear, a Valor is dead. It cannot shake them as they all are more agile. However Tokugawa can counter-dodge light BSs, dodge light mortars from cruisers and it had the armament to hunt those lighter ships without sacrificing it's close range prowess. I believe the "nerf" which is in fact a refocus of it's role more like. Before it was lacking at killing more tankier things than it pretty much and excelled at killing lighter ships. However now it is much more versatile. Also, you can still run dual HM + pulses to kill light BS/cruisers unaffected. You just have to tinker with your loadout more now.

---

[~Chio]

Toku was op to the point it could dodge as if its a light battleship while having a proper heavy's characteristics. It can still dodge that good. However it has to make -surprise- loadout choices and sacrifice in one area or other. You talk about Valor @~Chio however you forget that Valor is one of the less agile ships around. Its all about that 4 Hellbore+pulse gimmick and it has counters. Valor is completely vulnerable to attacks from rear and once any BS sticks to its rear, a Valor is dead. It cannot shake them as they all are more agile. However Tokugawa can counter-dodge light BSs, dodge light mortars from cruisers and it had the armament to hunt those lighter ships without sacrificing it's close range prowess. I believe the "nerf" which is in fact a refocus of it's role more like. Before it was lacking at killing more tankier things than it pretty much and excelled at killing lighter ships. However now it is much more versatile. Also, you can still run dual HM + pulses to kill light BS/cruisers unaffected. You just have to tinker with your loadout more now.

We already ended dicussion about the valor. There were lots of other points shared in this thread, if you would care to read 'em.

---

[Spectre]

however you forget that Valor is one of the less agile ships around.

I'm pulling this up first since it's quick and easy.
The Valor is actually considerably more maneuverable than most of the other ships it can go up against (Valor has 9.60 deg/s, Overlord has 8.66 deg/s, Atlantis has 9.17 deg/s, Invincible has 8.71 deg/s, the Deimos is on par with a very very slightly quicker turning rate of 9.63 deg/s). I won't deny that strafing or tanking can the saving grace for a lot of these ships, but what the Valor lacks in 'agility' it makes up for in versatility of its heavies. Those heavies, combined with that turning rate, can still make any ship that stays behind it easily be in front of it, or even to the side of it, with relative ease. A lot of people misunderstand just how far to the left or right those heavies can turn, the bottom ones even turning back enough to let you fire them about 60 degrees shy of full aft. Add in that four of those prims can very easily fire full rear, and it's just not really an argument. This is why I've maintained that the Valor needs a nerf, but then again that's not the point of this thread.
Moving on..

Toku was op to the point it could dodge as if its a light battleship while having a proper heavy's characteristics.

That was the allure of the Tokugawa, though. A mid-range between the medium and heavy battleship lines. Bear in mind that the Tokugawa has below-average HP for a Heavy BS (2.45mil) compared to some of its beefier cousins (Valor at 2.5m, Deimos at 2.6m, Bismarck at 2.8m), and has average turning rate for a Heavy BS as well (9.85deg/s). I won't deny that the shape was beautiful for 1v1s, but bear in mind that the Tokugawa also has by far the fattest broadside of any ship in the game. It's fatter than the Ransuer, it's fatter than the Bismarck, and it's fatter than any other ship that it could reasonably go up against. Again, on the broadside. In a multiple ship fight, the ship does not function as well in matched battles.

However now it is much more versatile.

Yes. Now instead of two heavies and two prims backwards, it can fire three heavies backwards. It's such an improvement that the ship's well rounded firepower makes it even more squishy. I honestly don't get why the emphasis was made to round the ship's firepower in every direction when it's already easy to keep at range in a light BS or run away in a cruiser and still not get hit.
Add in that the ship is even worse now against other heavies and it just seems ridiculous.