A) No sub-factions. I think there should just be a singular Zoner ID/FF, treated as generic in the rules as it is already generic in lore, and removal of Zoner FR5.
B) One Zoner IFF per system with Zoner bases. Eg Delta Zoners, Theta Zoners, Tau-37 Zoners, Omega-49 Zoners etc. Retain IFF and it is used on a specific per-system basis.
I feel like Outworlders is a bit of a weird mid-point implementation between the two of these, that wants to stay in the middle rather than commit to one of them. It seems contradictory that there is a multi-system group of Zoners that are unified, even if loosely, under something. Being a Zoner is a self-taken lifestyle.
(01-26-2021, 10:55 AM)Save My Soul Wrote: I find amusing the fact that you liked it. Given that Outworlders hostility is nothing more than a bug related to their IFF which used to be Zoner Guard, and thus hostile to almost everyone. Because when Outworlders were introduced into the game they just changed the name of IFF and did nothing else. It's just a gig, not a feature, lewl.
You're not entirely wrong but not entirely correct either. House factions with the exception of Unlawfuls are supposed to be unfriendly/no-dock to them. With this in mind though, don't think it's a good idea to make any major sell/buy points for commodities Outworlder bases.
According wiki, Zoners are "A diverse group of individuals who, for various reasons, have decided to live in the wild and unregulated systems outside colonial control. Over time, the various Zoner communities have evolved to adapt to the unique geopolitical situations present around the various Freeports. While many Zoners simply enjoy the freedom away from stifling House laws, others have invested in private deep space exploration ventures, either for the adventure or to further an interest in deregulated scientific discovery."
Also we should add the TAZ, religious Zoner faction, the OSI, one greedy ... i mean ... merchant faction. Also the Velvet that were portectors on Delta, some kind on way, and now Phoenix that go around ... i don't know ... sorry! Also MEd force that are more humanitarian faction!
In several actions against the Zoners, from the attacks of the Bounty Hunters/Core and Corsairs to FP11 to even the invasion of Bretonia on Gran Canaria, we always saw one ... basically an attitude of I don't care, from some groups or individuals! Some even behave very friendly to some factions that were shooting Zoners!! So ... why the outties were created? i Don't know and really i believe that wasn't necessary! Much of the Zoner way is to live and don't care about the others, i mean .. the Zoner player base, and very few times, some .. just some, united under one cause.
So creating new sub factions is useless, because that will change nothing. The only change are Zoner groups, OSI, TAZ, Phoenix, Med Force and Velvet, if they still exist, that are some players under the same group, under the same cause that is their cause, and basically! What we saw on Gran Canaria was the proof of that!
So, return to the same id and iff, and all will be the same, basically "every Zoner" for thenselfs.
Zoners have always felt normal and too basic for me to play them. Having Outworlders has really interested me in playing a Zoner from a different view, Outworlders allow you to be creative whilst working closely with the Corsairs, if we have space in the amount of factions the server can support both in IFF and IDs , i really think to improve Zoner gameplay its time we had more of these, especially with their own ID's. Each Zoner faction must have something that beats another Zoner faction, whether its in the ID, (the power and influence of each Zoner group) or something else. It's a positive step to branch out the Zoners, because they are everywhere in Sirius, and various Zoner groups operate around Sirius as officials/unofficials, and its probably time indies also benefitted from this as well. But it is very important to understand Zoners will work together and not fight each other, Zoners will always oppose House rule but that doesn't mean we cant make them unique in their own groups.
This conundrum has been going on since the dawn on Disco. I was objectively surprised when OW becoming a thing in the first place, since other topics like Zoner shiplines, POB discussions have died a silent withdrawal until someone drops another discussion bomb. Sarcasm not intended.
Anyway, there are both pros and cons to having 1 ID / IFF for simplicity, to devolving IFFs for a more complex interaction and consequences. You can argue on the same coin that because Zoner factions have their own difference in opinion, that new IFFs are needed to reflect the stance on each groups instead of mending them together in one blob. Certain Zoner groups may view one action much negatively than the other, and and vice versa an external faction may have beef with a specific group of Zoner / station but not others.
The one Zoner fits all also lead to oddities because we have multiple Zoner OFs; a unanimous decision need to be made to successfully FR5 a player or group. If one Zoner faction objects then the group in question also stays neutral, and lead to a situation where the other group can still dock on a Zoner station, and at the same time attack Zoner players. The last example of this where Hessians sieged a Zoner POB, and docked in the freeport next to it. Admittedly OSI was ok? with this but you could see where it could blend out if the situation was more greyer.
One thing I would certainly not advocate is adding IFF to individual bases. I think that is going overboard in spamming more unnecessary Reps / IFF with a limited player base, and there are some stations that sees much less action than others. Regional IFF could be fine here because a regional set of Zoner station would see a specific faction as a threat, due to an action on a base or player nearby, however the threat limited to that regional only because of ZOI limits where the faction can project their power sucessfully.
As for the odd OW IFF, if it still becomes a thing in the future.... I don't mind this becoming a feature where you start off with -0.3 to -0.55 and you can pay a bribe or "aka costco membership" to get access to specific items like Iridium, or scanner batteries for locality stuff etc.
(01-26-2021, 11:07 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: You're not entirely wrong but not entirely correct either. House factions with the exception of Unlawfuls are supposed to be unfriendly/no-dock to them. With this in mind though, don't think it's a good idea to make any major sell/buy points for commodities Outworlder bases.
Continue to choke economy when it's already dead is too dayum weird, but this is what you seem to be doing. But, meh... Whatever.
(01-26-2021, 11:07 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: ...and removal of Zoner FR5.
This is bad idea, of course. Because FR5 should be removed of game, not of a single faction.
(01-26-2021, 11:07 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: You're not entirely wrong but not entirely correct either. House factions with the exception of Unlawfuls are supposed to be unfriendly/no-dock to them. With this in mind though, don't think it's a good idea to make any major sell/buy points for commodities Outworlder bases.
Continue to choke economy when it's already dead is too dayum weird, but this is what you seem to be doing. But, meh... Whatever.
(01-26-2021, 11:07 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: ...and removal of Zoner FR5.
This is bad idea, of course. Because FR5 should be removed of game, not of a single faction.
But the key thing to note here is that Zoners are generic in lore, which is what makes them and their FR5 different to everyone else. It'd be like Freelancers being able to FR5.
(01-26-2021, 02:44 AM)Unseelie Wrote: Anyway, I'm curious how the community feels about us spinning out more of these sub-groups of zoners.
I'm for it, but the implementation needs to be better than the Outworlders. The Outworlders got red rep with many player ships that were friendly or neutral to zoners before. Shouldnt be too hard to have a script run over the playerbase files to amend that when such a new faction is first introduced.
Another theoretical mistake one could make in the implementation is that the zoner subgroups could be make hostile or nodock with too many factions. They should remain relatively neutral to others (and each other), just not as much as they are now.
Also, the name "Outworlder" isnt really that fitting of distinguishable from other zoners. Maybe give them names related to the region or freeport they inhabit insteat. For example Omicroners, Omegans, Taurons, Sigmoids.
Another large part of the motivation for separating the zoners into subfactions is that the restrictions that aimed at not making zoners a "unified superfaction" could be removed if they are split. For example the "cant dock 5ks" and "cant be used by non zoners" for the zoner whale.
As for zoner ships, in the same spirit the larger ships could be largely zoner-owned but not zoner-made. The mobile colony, which has a very beautiful and fitting model, could be manufactured by house corporations but designed and built for people who spend a lot of time in the outer regions. Together with that, the mobile colonies should be pretty much dis-armed and in return be allowed to enter and dock in house space.
The laziness (and in some cases selfishness) of past devs, together with the many restrictions they imposed, have been choking gameplay and more interesting+diverse RP for way too long.
I definitely agree with what most are saying about keeping one "main" ID for zoners which keeps you neutral to almost all, I think that is a attractive staple to playing Zoner. The idea of having several Zoner IDs for doing different things could be possible, I have found that even though the Zoner ID is quite basic, it has given me ideas for some creative RP regardless of their role they play in Sirius. Having several IFFs for each area of different Freeports may make things a little too complex perhaps, at this stage in the game in my opinion, adding much more complex mechanics to certain things like this may just throw people off, newer players in particular. The Outworlder issues for sure could be changed or at least their repsheet must be corrected as the faction seems confusing to many players. With all the said, Zoner is a popular faction for many different reasons and its good to see them continue to grow.
To me being a Zoner is similar to being a European. Yes, we have a common name yet our beliefs, culture, background and way of life may differ yet, we are all still Europeans (or Zoners).
When and whereever I travel in house space I always get greeted with "Hey Zoner" even though I fly the MFE tagged vessel which makes it clear people see Zoner ID'd vessels as Zoners and not for their individual tags unless you RP it. And perhaps this is what it should be. Be a Zoner yet your tag and RP defines what you are. And where it comes down to things like an FR5 then it's easy to perform this on (non)official Zoner factions who can be identified as such without having all Zoners be targeted.
So yes, I'd say we keep it a Zoner tag and let things evolve from there.
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it's still on the list...