Supernovas!

[Blodo]

@Blodo: you mean the SN now modified with the proposed stats and made the Zoner one, or just made the Zoner one with the stats it has now?

I mean the current one modified to the Zoner stats, and it's infocard replaced with the Zoner one. This way we will avoid the OORP problems of everyone starting with Order SN the moment 4.85 launches.

There should be a GMG SN there somewhere also, since they are one of the first to actually develop a bomber.
Taiidan bomber is their logo, and it makes little sense for them to use someone else's SN when they had a bomber before them.
Junkers probably as well, since they have a Waran to fly. And I can see them mounting Rogue one already.
What about other factions which use BW line? They will fly Falcata and shoot what?
For example, Bundies, LWB, Hackers (these should develop their own, as they are science geniuses).
They will all probably use the Outcast one, which just isn't good.

GMG can use the Zoner SN. LWB, Bundies will use Hessian SN. Hackers will use Rogue SN. It's all in RP for them, read the infocards.

[chopper]

So, Hackers are supposed to use a SN which was built for a Barghest?
That means, they are left with 500 energy after they shoot it.
That sucks.
Hackers deserve to have one of their own! No matter how good/bad it is, just make it.

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It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[Blodo]

The thing is: Rogue SN should not be adjusted to the Barghest. The Barghest should be adjusted to the SN. The Barghest needs to be way faster than it currently is, it's turning and strafing needs a boost for the size that it has. The SN should on the other hand be slightly weaker than the Outcast SN I think.

Remember what the infocard says. The Hackers rebuilt the Rogue SN. It's natural it would be suited for their purposes as well.

[chopper]

Why would they rebuild one for the rogues, but not make one for themselves?

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It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[Jinx]

here is something to think about. - the cerberus turret.

it offers 2 times the damage for ..... staggering 4 times the energyconsumtion. - thats about the ratio a weapon that derives from the "standard" should take. ( or the solaris turret for battleships. - it has a refire rate that is twice as great as the basic turret, but uses twice as much energy AND has a lower projectile speed by 100 )

now - lets translate that formula ( or at least the way this formula goes ) to what we got. - the basic weapon we intend to modify is the current order supernova. right now - one energypoint does 3.7 damage.

if we went the cerberus way - it would mean that every additional damage point was a ratio of 1:1 ( roughly ) - so that a supernova doing ~ 150.000 damage needed 48.000 energy to fire. it works the other way round, too - but then the benefits are halfed. - so that for every energy it needs less, it does around 7 points less damage. - so that a supernova that used only 30.000 energy was doing 56.000 less damage = 82.000 damage. - this would result in a faster refire, cause the reactor could replanish much faster. ( a bomber with a large powerplant has 58.000 energy - in order to fire 2 of them, they would need to only use 29.000 energy - so 30.000 should be the lowest energy usage for a supernova, it would mean to be able to fire another supernova quickly after the first one ( after the set refire rate instead of the reactor replenishment ) )

anyway - you see, when you make such a formula, you ll quickly abandon numbers like 160.000 damage - unless you increased the energyneed greatly.

here is the original SN

Original Supernova Stats for comparison.

Hull Damage: 132 000
Shield Damage: 66 000
Range: 1960m
Projectile Speed: 280m/s
Refire Rate: 0.17
Energy Usage: 38 000

here is the rogue SN

Liberty Rogue Particle Blaster
Lilith

Hull Damage - 163 000
Shield Damage - 81 500
Range - 2300m
Projectile Speed - 297m/s
Refire Rate - 0.18
Energy Usage - 47 500

now - if we apply the formula we got form the cerberus - this weapon with its 163k damage should need 38.000 energy + 31.000 energy ( cause every additinoal damage is on a 1:1 ratio ) - which is 69.000 energy - and so too much for even a big bomber to fire ( 58.000 energy ) - furthermore, it has the maximum range of all SN, almost maximum projectile speed ( 2ms to the best )

the nomad SN

Nomad Strangelet Cannon

Hull Damage - 159 000
Shield Damage - 75 500
Range - 2100m
Energy Usage - 32 000
Projectile Speed -272 m/s

it does 159k damage and should use 27.000 more energy than the current SN. - however it uses 6.000 LESS.

Kusari Photon Mortar
Kagutsuchi

Hull Damage - 115 000
Shield Damage - 57 500
Range - 2200 m
Energy Usage - 31 000
Projectile Speed - 280 m/s
Refire Rate 0.22

it does 17.000 less damage - and since the ratio for loosing something only rewards with half the benefits - it should need roughly 2000 less energy to fire. - the calculation suggests that it needs 7000 less energy though - so the benefit from the original is greater, too.

Outcast Particle Blaster
Basilisk

Hull Damage - 146 000
Shield Damage - 73 000
Range - 1900m
Projectile Speed - 294m/s
Refire Rate - 0.19
Energy Usage - 39 000

it does 14.000 more damage and should so use 52.000 energy. however, it only uses 39k.

what that shows is - the formula we applied to the cerberus, the solaris etc is not applied here. - what we got is what we had with the cerberus in beta 4 of 4.84. ( remember - the cerberus used only twice the energy for twice the damage - it was a 1: 1 trade )

i have only considered the damage / energy here - ... the projectile speed and range is off on most of the SNs, i am afraid. - it is strange how the rogue SN is maxed everywhere in range, projectile speed, damage for ... admittedly the most energy ... but it gains more than it looses ( it MAY work if it was rogue only and ONLY useable on the barghest IF the barghest wasn t getting a buff up the next version - which it does... it gets more agile and smaller from what i know ... furthermore, how long will we need to wait till the first squadron of red catamarans flies with these torpedos against enemy capships - and no, we cannot make it so that bombers cannot dismount their weapons and replace them )

the SN should follow a strict formula - best to use the cerberus formula! - the one i wrote above. - firstly, you don t get values that are totally off.. and secondly, you can actually really balance stuff. - adjustments should not be made in favour of or against a faction - only to round up / down the numbers - so a supernova does not do 139208 damage but 139000 instead.

what we are currently looking at are weapons that are all much much more powerful than the current supernova. again - i would urge those that balance them to think of the current SN as the BEST version. warships, fighters etc. are currently ... well, not balanced but at least used to the current SN. - no supernova version should offer better stats - and variations should be in the 1-5% range, not in the 1-30% range.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Blodo]

Why would they rebuild one for the rogues, but not make one for themselves?

Why would they make a different one when they could use the same one as the Rogues use, since they build it. Technically the Rogue SN is more of a Hacker SN with the Hackers giving them to Rogues as well.

[mjolnir]

@ McNeo, buckshot is getting changed... don't use it as an argument.

@ Jinx, using Cerberus to balance anything is just pure madness. It uses so much energy since the GB powerplants are too good. You remember first few betas of 4.84 right?


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My opinion is also that the speeds should be very close to each other, range can stay the same. Damage/energy can be changed.

Also remember that since it's basically only the energy that dictates refire, putting low energy "low" damage SNs on agile bombers will make them fire them much more often. Even that "low" damage is enough to kill any fighter/bomber.

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The thing that wasn't mentioned here during today is that Clayph originally wanted the Supernovas to have shield-specific damage. Which I tried to argue against without any luck.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[McNeo]

Now you see when you start including maths, an absolute truth, with balancing, an absoulte variable, you get into problems as Jinx has kindly shown.

Which brings me to the point that I do indeed think that the Nomad SN should be more powerful. Remember, Nomads -are- far more advanced than humans. However, remember that the Nomads also number less, both in RP and OORP (Based on the single player campaign).

You cannot apply a formula to calculating statistics of guns, it just doesnt work.

The reason I put the Lilith as the most powerful is because I doubt many will use it, to be honest. Its the worst anti-fighter weapon due to the fact that it takes the most energy, leaving 500 for the Hacker's option, as was said. To redeem such a shortfall it needs high speed, long range, and high damage. Those factors would make this weapon good.

Also, i'd like to say, it doesnt matter what you do to the Barghest. Good pilots put you in positions of complete vulnerability, and the sheer size of the Barghest makes that easy. You could make it turn like a Sabre, fact is you'll still get caught out. There's got to be some incentive to be Rogue. Also, it follows their gun stats, that is high damage and ridiculous energy use. Only other thing which would have higher damage would be a Xeno SN, which would use the same energy but have 2/3 range and 2k more damage, and be 10ms~ slower.

But Jinx, are you making the point that the stats in themselves are unbalanced, or that they are unbalanced when put together against a formula which doesnt take into account speeds or range?

@mjolnir:

I wouldnt use it as an arguement if I had a changelog of 4.85 sitting infront of me. As it stands, I dont. Also, I believe that all the guns will have the same trends, which is what I was basing my version of these SNs on. If they dont, then this discussion is completely void until I see the first beta or a complete changelog.

I know what its doing giving Kusari and the Blood Dragons those kinds of SNs. However, they will need more to counter capital ships. Since nobody flies capital ships into Chugoku, its not much of a problem. However, it will be far harder, and considering that that is what bombers are for, and then considering also that the Kusari/BD bombers will be tweaked, I do think its acceptable. Being all round is good, but this combination makes them very weak against things like gunboats.

Shield specific damage I do not agree should be included. Since each faction will only have access to their own or the Zoner one, this would make them very weak. Especially the Kusari/BD ones, which would be Photon and therefore weak against the standard graviton shield. That part would require a complete rethink of all the stats and I dont think many people have the patience to keep rebalancing statistics.

[chopper]

Antimatter cannon shouldn't have specific shield damage.
They are all staying antimatter, right?

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It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[McNeo]

The infocards dont indicate that. For example the Kusari one is meant to be a converted Photon planet smashing gun, and the Nomad one fires miniature stars while the Order one uses dark matter.

However, it doesnt matter what the infocard says in that respect. Standardising them in terms of weapon type is the best option to retain balance, otherwise you have three different sets of statistics for each SN, which is quite ridiculous. Its already quite ridiculous now with these SNs for large NPC factions.