The Dreadnought Dilemma - the ideal role of heavy caps in disco

[Lusitano]

when we look to the story, many times we see that "battleship X was moves to y system" or something like. so capital ship should be very important also on the player base. i defend that anyone should be able to have one capital ship, but ... should have one rp behind it's creation and use. capital ships should take years to be built , so should not be poping like small ships, without a proper intruduction. after all ... this is one rp server right? right?!!!!

[Skorak]

when we look to the story, many times we see that "battleship X was moves to y system" or something like. so capital ship should be very important also on the player base. i defend that anyone should be able to have one capital ship, but ... should have one rp behind it's creation and use. capital ships should take years to be built , so should not be poping like small ships, without a proper intruduction. after all ... this is one rp server right? right?!!!!

balance is never done with rp in mind.

Otherwise you will not fly any rogue ship ever because a defender will just slice it in half in two approaches.

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[Kauket]

Large capitals is the only reason many people play discovery. This would be a 0 player speedrun. They also still turbo die to - cruiser spam, bomber spam, gunboat spam.

Precisely this. Some players prefer playing bigger, and at a slower pace than snub gameplay which is extremely punishing if you're new.

Spamming anything is just... a W. People are relying too hard on their experience with the Dublin sieges which was mostly a mixed bag of different classes working together, and odd teamwork.

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[Antonio]

Ideal Battleships:

1. Components, ideally more than 3-4. Smaller components for snubs to target (bridge), medium sized components for caps to target (engines).
2. Rework of heavy turrets. Making their combat broadside for example, dividing them into broadside heavies and bow chasers.
3. Fixed crosshair issues, where some battleships get up to 1k extra range on the opponent. This would likely imply the downscale of the largest offenders, as Freelancer engine sadly isn't compatible with such large ships.
4. Fixed the scaling issue of being too big of a statcheck for smaller classes. That is, unless you restrict their access, but as long as battleships are open use they need to be balanced with all other classes in mind, including fighters.
5. More mechanics in general. Thrusters, more impulse speed, the previewed movement-powercore mechanic which never made it to 5.1.

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As for 5.1, I don't know if I'm playing the same game as some of the people here; (heavy) battleships are by far the strongest class in the game right now, pound for pound. The addition of strafe force buffs for heavy and medium battleships, as well as the easy blindfire toggle key, made their already-emphasized high stats of HP, shields, shield regen, dps and range even more prevalent, due to an extra layer of survivability and increased hit rate.

Additionally, other classes got nerfs against battleships specifically which indirectly buffed battleships:

1. Snubs have fewer strafe force, fewer range, and more mass. They are as a result way easier to hit for battleships now, who also got new flaks as another anti-snub tool. The extra DPS snubs do against battleships now is meaningless when their hull is still at 2m+, and they have no components.
2. Cruisers lost range on their guns, meaning they cannot perfect battleships from max range without ever getting deshielded anymore. The easy blindfire + new ranges means a battleship can hit a cruiser from the cruiser's max range. This is especially important as cruisers were pound for pound the strongest 5.0 class, and they kept battleships in check in a way, since they were a direct counter to battleships. Remove the counter, and it's another advantage battleships have going for them.
3. Gunboats and BCs are indirectly nerfed by the new blindfire mechanic, meaning battleship hit rate on those classes increased substantially.

Overall battleships need hotfix nerfs, and more importantly long term - fun and engaging mechanics. Right now they are strong, but unfun in terms of depth and mechanics to interact with other classes as well as between battleships themselves.

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[Barrier]

I'm glad that people have taken enough interest to post their opinions, but this is not a cap vs snub discussion. The question is specifically about the role of heavy caps: battleships/carriers/dreadnoughts.

I mean, the way balance currently sits really encourages a balanced fleet composition. BCs do things which cruisers can't do and cruisers do things that BCs can't do, et cetera. I really don't think any inrp limits should need to be placed since, as you've already observed in your original post, the problem has solved itself. People have realised that mono-heavy-cap compositions aren't really it.

If that is really true, then it seems that a lot of people haven't gotten the memo. But maybe we just need to wait a bit more until the "meta" settles. After all, it's only been a month since 5.1.

Bottom line, people are going to play that works and what is effective. In the current state of the game the BBs and Dreads are the cool thing that is not effective but people still play em because hey I like driving the big ships and I feel cool.

I get this same sense, especially based on running the Chaos in Connecticut tournament (which is already outdated to be fair). Lighter caps ran circles around the heavier ones in this vacuum. In the actual game and less restricted events heavy caps perform better, but still suffer from what you've discussed. So I agree in essence that people fly them because they're cool and shit, which is why I really wouldn't want them taken away.

The current meta seems to favor heavy battleships somewhat due to several factors.

As for 5.1, I don't know if I'm playing the same game as some of the people here; (heavy) battleships are by far the strongest class in the game right now, pound for pound.

If this is true, people have even more reasons to fly heavy caps beyond the cool factor and the forgiveness of being a damage sponge. I know that components are coming in the future so that part will be solved as it has been with other caps, but stuff like sniping due to blindfire will probably remain. And with the planned speed changes, there will be more reason to play them than ever, since there'd be substantial skill progression available, instead of primarily relying on the positioning of others around you or your skills in blindfiring.

As a person who doesn't go looking for or participate in PVP/E situations, I has a view on this too. As much as it is flying Dreadnaughts being one of the top-selling reasons to play Disco, it is just as much, or even more so, that the server is primarily a roleplay server.

i defend that anyone should be able to have one capital ship, but ... should have one rp behind it's creation and use. capital ships should take years to be built , so should not be poping like small ships, without a proper intruduction. after all ... this is one rp server right? right?!!!!

I think you guys articulated well why I personally believe playing a heavy cap should be substantially different inrp. The roleplay required to fit them into most situations is far and above what I'd expect from even a random cruiser showing up to a fight. But to be honest, this is one aspect of disco where it is "rp-lite" - beyond srps, no one is forced to justify the presence of their character within existing id limits. But I wonder if the heavier the cap becomes, the more like an srp it should be treated...

[DTR-El.Sosten]

I was flying only Dreads, but with 5.0 and 5.1 they feel useless.
No big torps (Nightmare silo) anymore
no effective strafing anymore. only a few meters.
No CK anymore
i have enjoined CAP battles more in 4.9( the patch before 5.0 hits)
I remember good and nice fights in Munich against RM( yes, also with the Nightmare Silos)
Playing CAP feels not right anymore.
They are like papers now.

[Big Bison Bessie]

The notion of making a cap SRP has come up again and again here, but I kind of find myself thinking.... what about SRP *equipment*. A lot of battleships in freelancer seem remarkably old. Perhaps it could be that through SRP, components or blueprints for components could be given to battleships to 'modernize' them... better power distributors, better shield boosters, heck could reintroduce armor but only for battleships and have that also be something you need permission to retrofit onto your old flying brick. And heck all these could be components on the outside that could be destroyed too.

This would make a proper battleship harder to acquire which seems to be an angle you're going for, but it wouldn't entirely discourage the average player from getting one... though it would create an unfair advantage for sure. Then again this is a massive warship, if you want the deployment to be impactful then an official or well known ship showing up should inspire some worry in the opponent.

As for components on battleships, I am genuinely surprised to hear they lack them as is. I guess I have never really been in a fight with many on the opposing side where I was not in a VHF

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[Haste]

Heavy Battleships are currently hands down the strongest ship you can bring to a fight. Can a side with nothing but Heavy Battleships be whittled down by smaller classes? Probably, because they can disengage, restock and return at will. A force with a half dozen Heavy Battleships and then a decent group of smaller ships is currently insurmountable without Heavy Battleships of your own.

This is mostly a technical issue. Even selecting the frontal dummy groups of something like an Ishtar you don't get a crosshair until you're basically bumping into it (literally a couple hundred meters on the range readout). Even though in theory you can blindfire from further away, an Ishtar can just laser you down before you ever get to shoot back in Cruisers and below. Properly used BS flaks and secondaries are also stronger than anything smaller caps can use, and a clump of Battleships covering one another is unapproachable.

I think the ship has sailed on restricting Battleships, though, and it sailed well over a decade ago. We have to live with the fact that everyone and their mother can and will log one in. This means that, unfortunately, the reality is that they will always be a "compromise". They can't be the huge power fantasy megacaps we all want because you can have 16 of them logged in at once on the same side in a fleet (and, possibly more importantly, a lot of factions simply don't and shouldn't have Battleships). It's a little-known fact that there are another dozen or so combat (sub)classes in the game that aren't Battleships that would love to be able to do something in a fleet setting, and for that to be the case there's an upper limit to the firepower and, arguably more importantly, time-to-kill Battleships bring to the table.

I've jokingly said before that maybe Battleship powercores should all draw from some sort of collective pool in the same system, so the second there's more than two of them in the same system they just never get to fire, but extremely dumb solutions like those seem more sensible with every passing day.

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[Diablo666Daemon666]

Nerfing the best guns in the game probably didn't help.
Most of the Capships I see are flown by muppets who just cash-grinded to get one.

I've seen PIRATE players with bluddy battleships!
That's not right.
That's like seeing a Corsair flying a Liberty Navy Defender.
However, as a LSF "Spy", I was once flying an Outcast ship...

Some people forget the RP of the server and just play how they want.

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"He who controls the past commands the future, He who commands the future, conquers the past."
- Kane, Brotherhood Of NOD.