A sabre can actually keep up quite easily with an Eagle if you pay attention to the Eagle pilot. You are always on the back foot, but its responsiveness means you can keep up with even light fighters, and shred them to bits.
I agree with what chopper said, but his point on learning to dodge nukes in a Titan is a very good one. If you learn how to do something in a Titan, you automatically gain that skill in every other faster VHF you fly. Since most out there are faster or better in that respect than the Titan, or at least the ones that are commonly flown, that skill becomes commonly used by you. This is more or less the reason that people who fly Corsair are generally better than people who fly Outcast. There are of course, exceptions.
Quote:Titan isn't bad, but really, when compared to a Sabre, it's not even the same class.
This part sums it up nicely. You've gotta know some fancy flying to beat Sabres. Or you can fly a Praetorian, which is what I see a lot of us doing. And then we get told we're spamming Praetorians...
Also, Eagles can beat Chimearas, if the pilot of said Chimeara hasnt had his wings shot off and looks like a flying shoe.
' Wrote:I think that frankly we should have faster more manuverable fighters all round, leave the sabre where it is and bring other stuff up, lose the vanilla vulnerablity and bring other stuff up. Using the Sabre as a kind of measuring stick.
You know how what this will mean will all ships non-vanilla?
Fights will take... forever
I think you had enough experience fighting Viper.... now image them with more turning/agility... how long will it take to kill them? With a good pilot they will never die.. simple.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
' Wrote:I think you had enough experience fighting Viper.... now image them with more turning/agility... how long will it take to kill them? With a good pilot they will never die.. simple.
Viper mk1 with it's screwed hitbox is already difficult enough to kill as it is... with a agility boost :shiver:
As for the Titan being good, it's true. I always fly my titan because it's so awesome. (Mule hasn't flown his titan in a real fight in months). Hell even if it got buffed, I think the memory of the failage the Titan was will haunt me too much to use it...
Er, joe, I didn't say the sabre had more armor than the titan..!!!
I said the sabre had more armor than its vanilla version, wheras the eagle was untouched in every way.
"Freelancer Alpha dash niner, this is Freeport 7 control, You are cleared for departure. Good luck out there."
Soldato Zavier Benitez, Benitez flight instructor.
' Wrote:Can you then, please, give me the list of all VHF's that have better turning rate then the Sabre?
Eagle can outturn it? Oh noez, let's not touch it then. I'll remind you, you are the same person that used to say how Eagle can't beat a Chimaera ever.
Titan is close? Really? Did you ever fly it?
You can't even compare Titan's and Sabre's agility, not even close.
I fly both regularly and I know the difference pretty well.
It depends, uselessness for whom? Put a Corsair (who's used to Titan) in that 'useless Sabre' and he'll do just fine.
The only VHF that is actually close to a Sabre is a BD.
There are no other VHF's that can dodge 5+ people shooting on them easily.
Titan isn't bad, but really, when compared to a Sabre, it's not even the same class.
Never said the Eagle couldn't EVER beat a Chimaera, but they are in completely different classes with the current balance system. I'll work on getting that list when I get home (at my school atm). And yes, I've flown a Titan. I FLY a Titan. And I didn't compare their agility. Sabre has it beat to dust. I compared it turning and overall usability. In terms of turning, the Sabre isn't that much better. As 've said, others have said, and even the Corsairs have said. What makes the Sabre good is its strafing and agility. We're already nerfing the mass and strafing, which will be fixing it. After that the titan can beat the Sabre without being a great uber pilot. And if you really think that its impossible to dodge 5+ people in anything bu BD HF and Sabre, take a look at the Talon, Stinger, Ravens Talon (This version even, not 4.83), Ravensclaw, Eagle, and Chimaera. I know people who have dodged 5 people in those ships, and I have done it in a few of them as well.
And just because Corsairs use Titans doesn't mean they are better pilots or can use a Sabre better than the Outcasts. Its immature to even think that. You get good at using a ship, not good in general. I'm good in an Eagle, Sabre, BD HF, and Stinger.. That does NOT mean I'll be good at using another ship until I practice with it. Put a Titan pilot in a Sabre and see how he does. I can guarantee if its his first time using it, the Oucast will beat him. Using slightly inferior ships does not mean you are a better pilot, it means that you have worked hard so that your as good as the superior ships while you fly your inferior one.
' Wrote:A sabre can actually keep up quite easily with an Eagle if you pay attention to the Eagle pilot. You are always on the back foot, but its responsiveness means you can keep up with even light fighters, and shred them to bits.
I agree with what chopper said, but his point on learning to dodge nukes in a Titan is a very good one. If you learn how to do something in a Titan, you automatically gain that skill in every other faster VHF you fly. Since most out there are faster or better in that respect than the Titan, or at least the ones that are commonly flown, that skill becomes commonly used by you. This is more or less the reason that people who fly Corsair are generally better than people who fly Outcast. There are of course, exceptions.
This part sums it up nicely. You've gotta know some fancy flying to beat Sabres. Or you can fly a Praetorian, which is what I see a lot of us doing. And then we get told we're spamming Praetorians...
Also, Eagles can beat Chimearas, if the pilot of said Chimeara hasnt had his wings shot off and looks like a flying shoe.
Again, what I said above. Learning to use an inferior ship does not give you a free pass on skill in another. It takes practice with that ship of choice, not just 'Oh hey, I can fly an inferior ship well, I'll be UbAr in this one now!!1! Lets not wave E-peen around in our pursuit of balance. For one, this is SHIP balance, not pilot skill balance. The pilot's skill should NEVER be an issue when dealing with a ship's balance.
"This is more or less the reason that people who fly Corsair are generally better than people who fly Outcast. There are of course, exceptions."
As I have said, this is an immature and careless thought to have. You aren't better pilots. Your better in your ship than they are in theirs? Okay. You good in your ship? Doesn't mean that your opponent can't be equally skilled in it.
And of course your told you're spamming Praetorians. when you take 90% Praets to every fight, you ARE spamming Praes. I've seen less cap-spamming by Liberty than I have seen Prae spamming. I disagree with it, but I don't do it to your face to piss you off, nor do I tell you that you shouldn't.
And about the Chim, for I have heard this of the BD HF as well. Not everyone shoots off their wings. You insult those of us who play that class of ship legitimately when you say it.. Also, whether the Eagle wins or not is very dependent of flying skill. Stick two pilots of completely equal skills in the ships and the Chimaera will have a very large advantage.
' Wrote:You know how what this will mean will all ships non-vanilla?
Fights will take... forever
I think you had enough experience fighting Viper.... now image them with more turning/agility... how long will it take to kill them? With a good pilot they will never die.. simple.
I do agree with Mjolner here.. Do NOT give more agility. In Freeworlds, ships had LF agility and moved at 300m/s or so.. 8v8 fight, you've got a good 3 hour fight there, unless someone does something stupid or brings in a cap. Have you seen an LF vs LF fight? Very little shots hit the other ship, nor do many hit your own. And LF vs an LF is a long fight. now imagine it with VHF armor. And then we have to pump the LFs even more, resulting in them literially turning on a dime.
' Wrote:Never said the Eagle couldn't EVER beat a Chimaera, but they are in completely different classes with the current balance system. I'll work on getting that list when I get home (at my school atm). And yes, I've flown a Titan. I FLY a Titan. And I didn't compare their agility. Sabre has it beat to dust. I compared it turning and overall usability. In terms of turning, the Sabre isn't that much better. As 've said, others have said, and even the Corsairs have said. What makes the Sabre good is its strafing and agility. We're already nerfing the mass and strafing, which will be fixing it. After that the titan can beat the Sabre without being a great uber pilot. And if you really think that its impossible to dodge 5+ people in anything bu BD HF and Sabre, take a look at the Talon, Stinger, Ravens Talon (This version even, not 4.83), Ravensclaw, Eagle, and Chimaera. I know people who have dodged 5 people in those ships, and I have done it in a few of them as well.
No real objections. I would just like to point out that it can more or less match an Eagle in turns because of its responsiveness though.
And just because Corsairs use Titans doesn't mean they are better pilots or can use a Sabre better than the Outcasts. Its immature to even think that. You get good at using a ship, not good in general. I'm good in an Eagle, Sabre, BD HF, and Stinger.. That does NOT mean I'll be good at using another ship until I practice with it. Put a Titan pilot in a Sabre and see how he does. I can guarantee if its his first time using it, the Oucast will beat him. Using slightly inferior ships does not mean you are a better pilot, it means that you have worked hard so that your as good as the superior ships while you fly your inferior one.
Again, what I said above. Learning to use an inferior ship does not give you a free pass on skill in another. It takes practice with that ship of choice, not just 'Oh hey, I can fly an inferior ship well, I'll be UbAr in this one now!!1! Lets not wave E-peen around in our pursuit of balance. For one, this is SHIP balance, not pilot skill balance. The pilot's skill should NEVER be an issue when dealing with a ship's balance.
"This is more or less the reason that people who fly Corsair are generally better than people who fly Outcast. There are of course, exceptions."
As I have said, this is an immature and careless thought to have. You aren't better pilots. Your better in your ship than they are in theirs? Okay. You good in your ship? Doesn't mean that your opponent can't be equally skilled in it.
Wrong. I've practiced my arse off in a Titan when I first came here, and now I practice in an Eagle aswell as the Titan. First time I jumped in a 4.84 Sabre, I raped the stuffing out of everything that moved. Enough to say that I would never be able to do what I did in the 4.84 Titan. Its actually immature to think that actions of any kind dont have knock on effects elsewhere.
Bear in mind I havent and never will own a Sabre until at least 4.85, and I havent flown the Sabre again since that first spin in real combat and a few training matches against opposing Sabres and various ships in connecticut.
Besides that, I speak from my personal experience in that field, and so do you. Perhaps we learn different ways, but its not immature or careless to speak from what i've experienced and seen. You should remember that.
And of course your told you're spamming Praetorians. when you take 90% Praets to every fight, you ARE spamming Praes. I've seen less cap-spamming by Liberty than I have seen Prae spamming. I disagree with it, but I don't do it to your face to piss you off, nor do I tell you that you shouldn't.
Why do you think we take a lot of Praetorians out to fight? Lemme tell you. Because every time we dont, Eppy brings out the big guns. We counter that with one of the best ships in our arsenal, since our cruiser and dreadnought are crap, and cap-spam in general is far worse than "spamming" bombers. Its going to get to the point that we are "spamming" VHFs. Certainly, its already past the point where we were spamming LFs (which was a ridiculous accusation, let me add).
And about the Chim, for I have heard this of the BD HF as well. Not everyone shoots off their wings. You insult those of us who play that class of ship legitimately when you say it.. Also, whether the Eagle wins or not is very dependent of flying skill. Stick two pilots of completely equal skills in the ships and the Chimaera will have a very large advantage.
I never accused anyone in particular of doing this. In fact, i've never seen it done myself in combat. Dont twist my words into something you can attack just because you feel like it. I made no insults and I certainly do not apologise for what I said, unless you see the truth as a corresponding insult.
I do agree with Mjolner here.. Do NOT give more agility. In Freeworlds, ships had LF agility and moved at 300m/s or so.. 8v8 fight, you've got a good 3 hour fight there, unless someone does something stupid or brings in a cap. Have you seen an LF vs LF fight? Very little shots hit the other ship, nor do many hit your own. And LF vs an LF is a long fight. now imagine it with VHF armor. And then we have to pump the LFs even more, resulting in them literially turning on a dime.
More agility= Less hits; I agree. Its better to keep things slower, rather than speeding everything up. I remember the fifth gear mod when I tried in in SP. That was insane.
I would just like to say, that I agree with McNeo.
I too, have flown a 4.84 sabre, and without armor, and class EIGHT Wyrms on it, I kicked the crap out of a fully tricked out falcata and got a tricked out RoS sabre down to 10% hull before I died, so yes, I'd say that skill -does- carry over from ship to ship.
But setting this thread back on topic...
I don't believe the Titan should get an agility decrease. No-one would use it at all, even if the Roleplay called for it, sorry Carlos.
"Freelancer Alpha dash niner, this is Freeport 7 control, You are cleared for departure. Good luck out there."
Soldato Zavier Benitez, Benitez flight instructor.
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