Lawfuls using/knowing about unlawful jump holes

[Xing]

Well, Trent as one, knows the position of Kyoto, Buffalo, Cadiz, and that LH asteroid...
And also, was it a Freelancer who first entered commercial relationship with the corsairs - how did he earned his trust? just by selling stuffs to the corsairs.

All pirate base should be like Kyoto, hidden in another system completely, deep in a large asteroid/nebula field, legendary and hard to access.

Buffalo is barely 70k from west point...

on the subject of jumphole, it seems some lawful are aware of them as well (npcs selling location of base/jumphole). not sure, my memory is a bit dusty here.

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[TDLdark]

knowing about a jump hole and using it are two different things.

I think it is in RP for a lawful to KNOW about a jumphole. There are a multitude of ways that a jumphole could be discovered. Scanning space with powerful satellites (something we are capable of doing today,) pursuing a unlawful, tip offs, and accidentally stumbleupons are just some of the more likely reasons.
Also, it is important about how the unlawfuls discovered the jumphole. If an unlawful can discover a jumphole, why can't a lawful? The only situation I envision where a entire house could not find a jumphole is if both ends of the jumphole is in a dangerous place or a nebula. However, this rarely happens in house space.

However, using a jumphole is an entirely different scenario. I do believe for the most part it would be OORP for a lawful to use a jumphole. This is becuase jumpholes are supposed to be unpredicatable. Furthermore, for all the lawful knows, an ambush could be waiting.

Therefore I believe it's in RP for lawfuls to know about jumpholes but OORP for them to use them unless pursuing a important target.

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TDL Dark pretty much hit the nail on the head..

Ypsilantis Family

[Caribe]

Well since we are on the topic of the badlands: Remember that in SP the Navy sent a Fleet into the badlands to chase Trent and Juni. That being two cruisers and a heck load of fighters.

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Been here since Discovery 4.77 (lurk mode engaged)

I have recently met and discussed with Atalawohisdi the trader that flies the Caribe. Just so everyone knows, I engaged in Sigma 13. He flies through half the system before going back to New Berlin, where he cruises from one side of the system to the other, hugging the sun as close as he can. All the while, he flies near Battleships trying to scrape me off. I finally send out the white flag, and move back to Sigma 13. However, it was a ruse, and he bit. Knowing his trade route, I interdicted the trade lane and the chase began anew. It ended, an hour after it began, with me retreating, out of Countermeasures and getting very irritated.

He kept boasting how he has never been caught; I'd like to see him beat until he begs to pay, then beaten some more.

- Best day ever.

[Bjorn]

Current base position is made to keep status quo. Noone gaining or loosing advantage.

Badlands, and many other asteroid fields are reducing scanner range and manuverability of ships. Since in roleplay, lawfulls do not respawn at will as players do, they are simply scared. Go buy a patriot and bump it in asteroids few times and you are dead.

Buffalo is known about by lawfull forces (higher ranked ones) but is actually hard place to crack. Firstly, caps cant really get to it(heck, even liner can only go on impulse and will be hitting asteroids now and then.) And fighter weapons are not powerfull enough to scrape base that is made out from asteroid. Again, most lawfull forces are made up by class 3-6 ships, they are rather weak, added rogue opposition with terrain advantage...

Jump holes are used by people in dire need. Unstability of holes is not Aegira propaganda, but it is a fact. They are usually unavalible to larger ships, and they function only at certain times. Because of game mehanics, they are allways operational, but they should not be.

Lawfulls use lanes and gates, while unlawfulls use asteroid fields, radiation and holes. truth to be told, if you are only using your ZOI, its rather acessible and time required to travel one way or antoher is similar if you take in account threat, distance, need for stealth and alike.

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ISS-Zapotec

[Derkylos]

I think we can only state opinions here-not factual evidence-because many parts of the FL universe are open to interpretation.

My view is that most jump hole locations would be unknown to lawfuls, same deal with pirate bases.

One thing to consider is that NOTHING in the FL universe is anywhere NEAR real scale-take the star in New York, compare it in size to Manhattan, or Pittsburgh, compare their distance/size ratios. Now look at the badlands...not all that big? Maybe...maybe not, had to tell.

As I'm on the subject of sizes, lets bring in another known fact about space-things move. Planets orbit, asteroids do too, even stars orbit fixed points-everything is in motion relative to something else. Now we have a problem-trade lanes. So I build a trade lane from New London to Southampton Shipyard...what's to say both these places orbit the star at the same rate? How can trade lanes be constructed in such a way that they always start and stop near the intended stations/planets? For that matter, would Sigma-13 always be between Rheinland and Kusari? How can we be certain whole systems won't change places over time?

As such, we are forced to rely on the rumors and infocards supplied by the game manufacturers. I saw a rumor on Sheffield (i think?) stating that Bounty Hunters that told the lawfuls where jump holes were had an...unfortunate...accident. I also remember reading (cant remember where exactly) that a Blood Dragon patrol ambushed a wing of Kusari ships that they "thought had found the Honshu->Choguku jump hole by accident while pursuing a Dragons' attack group". These imply to me that jump holes are not well-charted by law enforcement agencies.

On the issue of lawful guard system jump holes, well, to be honest, I dont understand how guard systems fit into the story...but maybe that's just me.

PS: sorry for the wall of text-just some ideas I had, thought I'd throw them out there.

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[Alexander Draconis]

Lawfuls should avoid using jumpholes unless they have been tested (IE the out in the open ones that are commonly used by corps and lawfuls)

Pirates shouldn't use gates of they can help it, nor lanes. In RP, the lane is scanning and tracking your ship in incredible detail, something no pirate wants.

Bases remain because they are moved, rebuilt, or simply well enough defended that they are not blown up. Buffalo exsists because destroying it would be incredibly hard. If the game were balanced according to player strength and assuming proper player numbers, it'd be a Rheinland vs GMG battle just to get rid of buffalo. Much safer and cost effective to patrol outside the badlands and intercept operating ships in the area. The badlands are a prison, the Navy it's guards, and buffalo is the inmate. Same goes for other hiden bases.

Before you say I'm wrong, Liberty is building up it's military anyway, so the pirates actually provide good training for pilots as well as good testing for new ships and parts. It also means they have a predictable enemy that an invading nation may try to bribe, or it means they have an ally seeking to expunge the outsiders. Either way, hand plays to the navy, as this applies to all Houses save Kusari who are much more vindictive about revolutionaries than even Rheinland.

I hope this makes sense to you all and helps ease tensions and encourage roleplay.

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Mitchel Axton: Hard Luck--Flyheight: From the Bottom
Dryson: LN Pilot--Leygeist of The Order--Alistair Blood: Dragon of Fury

Orson's Story--Joseph's Story

[kingvaillant]

I do believe that everyone knows about everything.

Lawfuls know about the JH, even the pirate bases
*lolwut you might say*

Think about it, if there was no big an mean pirates around, what would be the purposes of patrolling space? Minimal, in fact, patrols would be severely reduced... Civilian would begin to use JH, instead of TL and JG, thus not giving any money to Ageira and making it go near bankrupt.

I do believe that some high ranked authorities are fully aware of the locations of some pirates facilities, but will never attempt to directly attack them. Because if they succeed in destroying the base, the pirate activity will drop... Thus, they would, some of them, lose their jobs due to budget relocations.

So, to prevent this:
o Ageira is making a propaganda against JH
o The lawfuls are not authorized to go near pirate installations (they aren't aware of the installations, except HC)
o Lawfuls are not authorized to take JH, unless it is vital
o Lawfuls still patrol system heavily, to keep a control on the populations

I see Sirius as a place, living in the human dark age. Corruption and sins are part of everyday life

Plus, some bases are surely hard to find... Like Buffalo: it could be any of the rocks in the badlands. that is how I rp it when I'm fighting right beside the base.

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Director of the Liberty Security Force: Fidelity, Bravery and Integrity

The Amundsen Zone-21 Restrictions

[Lupusy]

i think its ok.. not all the lawfuls know about it -- only the experienced ones.

and yes i think eventually warfare in the server will beocome more intense and tough. it should be like an ongoing deathmatch or flag capture or whatever FPS style game. at one time one side will lose but through persistence and ingenuity the other side turns back the tide. and so on.

so yea i think its ok for lawfuls to know about/use hidden jump holes.

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[Tenacity]

Well since we are on the topic of the badlands: Remember that in SP the Navy sent a Fleet into the badlands to chase Trent and Juni. That being two cruisers and a heck load of fighters.

The navy was also under control of nomads at the time, and nomads tend to not care about radiation poisoning or losing their human subjects.

Buffalo is known about by lawfull forces (higher ranked ones) but is actually hard place to crack. Firstly, caps cant really get to it(heck, even liner can only go on impulse and will be hitting asteroids now and then.) And fighter weapons are not powerfull enough to scrape base that is made out from asteroid. Again, most lawfull forces are made up by class 3-6 ships, they are rather weak, added rogue opposition with terrain advantage...

This is one of the primary points i'm pushing. The GMG, with nothing but fighters and maybe a few bombers, took out almost the entire rheinland military fleet in one fell swoop. How? They had a terrain advantage: scanner-blocking nebulas and volatile gas clouds. The people who live in those hazardous areas have adapted to work around the dangers. Criminals who live in areas of high radiation are very likely to have radiation shielding on their ships, and take cryer's anti-radiation pills daily, as is stated by rumors on unlawful bases in those areas. Those criminal elements are also much more likely to have developed combat tactics based on using the asteroids, gas pockets, scanner blocking properties of nebula, and other environmental conditions to give them a severe advantage in combat.

Lawful ships do not have those advantages, so it's really absolute suicide for any lawful ship to try and fight an enemy in a hazardous environment when the enemy lives there. That's probably why buffalo hasnt been discovered/blown up, and should be the same reason why lawfuls should not pursue criminals or smugglers into hazardous environment areas, or try to cut them off at hidden jump holes within those areas.

i think its ok.. not all the lawfuls know about it -- only the experienced ones.

And that experience doesnt come from playing their lawful character, it comes from playing a seperate, criminal character which uses those bases and jump holes. That knowledge is then used by the PLAYER on both characters.

I'm sorry, but we dont have psychics here, short of nomads. Using one character's RP to try and support another against it is powergaming.

and yes i think eventually warfare in the server will beocome more intense and tough. it should be like an ongoing deathmatch or flag capture or whatever FPS style game. at one time one side will lose but through persistence and ingenuity the other side turns back the tide. and so on.

so yea i think its ok for lawfuls to know about/use hidden jump holes.

This is an RP server, we go by RP rules here. You're not thinking along those lines, come back when you have some more experience in the area of this discussion.

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[chovynz]

I think these types of threads should stop.
It's not about OORP.
it's not about who can know what. There are times and places for everything.
There are times when good roleplay will involve cops knowing where buffalo is.
There are times when unlawfuls can use Jumpgates.
There are times when lawfuls will want to use Jumpholes.

There is no straight, direct line of "lawfuls cant use jumpholes, and unlawfuls cant use jumpgates."
To say so is to miss the point of what roleplay is. Its EXACTLY the same arguement as whether a FL player should
join up to a faction or not. It's a pointless debate, and one not grounded in reality, nor in "fun" roleplay.

The answer is both yes and no, depending on the situation.

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Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.