Meh. A Nomad who has allowed himself to be found in Sirius, and isn't packing enough heat to massacre everybody should expect to be jumped by superior forces. It's part of the RP, what do you think that people would in RP just ignore the greatest threat humanity ever seen because "ahh hell, it would be unfair to the poor squidgy"? It would be OORP *not* to engage, unless with a clear reason like... "he's already outnumbered 6 to 1, so they can handle it" or something.
Then there are the arguments Adrian mentioned. Freelancer as we have it here isn't about fighting and winning and whining if you don't win. We have capital ships and we have fighters, and due to the game mechanics there are some situations that you simply cannot win due to hard counters (cruisers vs fighters, battleships vs gunboats, etc.). In those situations instead of writing "// OMG GANK" in system chat then going on forums to argue about it afterwards, you could try turning tail and running as fast as engines permit... After all, the big idea is not to get killed.
Or if you can't get people to change their perception of fun, and people can't get you to change your perception of fun, then instead of sitting there between a rock and a hard place you could go to some other area of space which isn't nigh completely filled with 12 year olds, and have fun your way there. It is a good option...
' Wrote:unless with a clear reason like... "he's already outnumbered 6 to 1, so they can handle it" or something.
But these are the limits people don't have. "OMG GET KILL" is way more important. If you are walking down the street and you see a fight between sven guys and one dude you don't like, you'd probably walk right past thinking "heh... karma". You probably wouldn't jump right on in and start swinging kikcs at the guy's head too unless you are an agressive sociopath.
It seems that people are just way too agressive. Both OoRP and in RP.
Again I think the other side of Joe's "point" is still being ignored, or more correctly, one side of his point
is being over-emphasised. I will give a number of examples of good ganking.
Back when I was playing my nomad, I expected to get ganked.
Sometimes it got annoying, sometimes it was fun. But everytime
I went out, Either I hid myself (above plain or in clouds) and Rp'ed it either in pms
or systemwide (depending on the what the situation and that session goals were)
OR
I expected to get shot up eventually.
One time I was in a furball of ~22 odd LSF/LN/Xenos/indys/a number of gunboats and capitals vs 1
keeper/1 nomad/~1-2 nomad sympathetics/influenced. The fight lasted for about 45 minutes. The other
nomads
died fairly quickly into the fight. Now obviously I couldn't kill the gunboats but I could and did kill fighters,
all while dodging the others trying to blast my jelly. I got a HUGE sense of satisfaction and exhilaration
from that fight, because I lasted that long against that many.
If I had to replay that same situation, I as the outnumbered, would not WANT people to withdraw.
It just doesnt make sense to me, to require a withdraw because the "numbers are not correct".
---------
You can only do so much as a lone pirate. One tactic of space pirates can mean that they should be intimidating. I hear too many complaints from traders about wah wah being
pirated, when they can make over 8million in 15 minutes. Or you get the other sort of
"just kill me now". You also get the runners. That's fine.
The worst part is that many traders do not roleplay as traders. They think they are above being
pirated or shot or whatever. One tactic I developed was to gather a team, so that we could chase,
box, and herd the traders. Was I after a kill? NO. I was after Roleplay. THAT'S the thing that you
should be ragging on about, not ragging on those going around in teams.
"Ganking", "Groupwork" "Gangs" "Teamwork" call it what you will. It's legitimate, it's good roleplay,
it encourages teamwork, especially in unlawful groups. To so strongly say "numbers matter" misses
out on a crucial part of the other side. It is not a one size fits all as you suggest in your first post
and continue to do so now.
Also I'd like to point out that I can't make people feel anything or any certain feeling about what I do.
I've learned long ago that I can be as nice to them as I can, and they STILL have a problem, simply for
the fact of being stopped or inconvenienced.
So, Joe, I take exception to you saying that we shouldn't have a team, going around pirating if the number
ratio is more than 3 to 1, all in the name of a nonexistant "fair-play". I find 6 pirates to 1 trader to be a good
level of intimidation for traders who want to show attitudes or just be plain stupid, when it comes to facing
down "thugs". You also never know when you'll have to fend of a team of Lawfuls, or other pirates that want
your turf. You also never know what type of ship the trader will be flying or if they, god forbid, ACTUALLY HAVE escorts!!!
Fair-play doesn't exist in Real life. Why should one man's concept of "fair-play" exist in Disco?
I think you are focusing on something that isn't the problem.
The problem is not the amount of people against another amount of people. It's the lack of roleplay that is the problem,.
Them just jumping in, without finding out what's going on. "Oh good! A fight! I'll join."
Then like other people have mentioned, other things come into play as well, like the skill level of all, the ships flown, the types of shields. Making calls on the number of ships in the fights, well you might as well ask the questions:
Do I have weapons that will harm the other persons shield faster than they will mine?
Do *They* have a shield that can deflect my shots better than mine?
Does *their* ship have more bots and bats capaicity so that I'm not draining their shields too fast?
Do *they* have a large power generator than me so that we are on a fair level, because of my skill level?
I'm sorry. I love you bro, I really do. But I think you are over analysing this non-issue,
and making it into something that it is not. You (myself) cannot be responsible for any other persons enjoyment of this game. There are always whiners. There will always be people that don't enjoy some facet of what you choose to do. That is their choice. I will not take the stance that you (Joe) advocate. I will not check their ship or equipment or weapons, or my groups numbers on the basis of a non-existent "fair-play". I will continue to hunt in groups. I will continue to enjoy the game as best I can, and give people space to enjoy themselves as well.
I'm after Roleplay, not fairplay. How someone reacts or responds to me is their choice.
Edit: I do understand the point you've been trying to make, I'm not ignoring it. But I'm saying don't lean too heavily on the side of "fairness in numbers". Because if you keep going down that track eventually we'll be making rules up about "Rule 6.666 Only two people may go in group at any one time."
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
It is annoying, even when it's your side that gets renforcements it does not need. Just one hour ago I was on my LSF and we headed to Bering to engage some Unioners. 3 VHF's against 4 VHF's
All of a sudden a Cruiser appears and ignores my request to stand down, predictably the 3 Unioners and Hessian start to fall. 2 Unioner VHF's left now against 3 LSF VHF's and an uninvited Cruiser! Then a passing BH Bomber decides the odds are on his side and engages the Unioners too, again ignoring my request not too. After destroying another Unioner I order my LSF wing to leave in disgust.
I read in their dump that the remaining Unioner killed the remaining BH bomber and I'm glad, serves him right :laugh:
As I said, I like fighting against the odds, but there is just no need to bring Capitals to a VHF battle and there is no need to join a fight against people who are already out-numbered.
' Wrote:But that is alot diffrent than 5 OC GS's Ganking a rhino and demanding 10 million
The concept of fair is so relative that it is essentially unworkable as a rule in game. How could that have been more fair? Four gunships? Three? Two? One? A Bomber? A Fighter? Should the fighter have had armour upgrades? Is it fair to mount just missiles? Where did this happen? Didn't the guy see them on the scanner? Are we going to introduce rules on how much you can demand?
People still complain about gunboats mounting two missiles as being "unfair". Say a gunboat choosed to play down their ability to kill fighter/bombers, say by choosing to mount regular level 5 turrets rather than GB ones. Said gunboat gets whupped. That isn't "fair".
Thing that gets up my nose the most are the ooc complaints in-game about odds. Totally kills the game.
Ganks are a daily occurence. But not every day for every one. And you never hear about the ganks that go wrong. (cf RHA in Gamma - happened a few times).
The best argument against a gank is a simple RP one - you learn nothing as a combat pilot from killing a enemy who is outnumbered seven to one.
Amen to all that Joe. Same ganking thing happened in Bering today while we were fighting the LSF. And it happaned despite LSF's consistent warnings about how it wasn't needed at all. It just ruined a potential fight, and provided nothing so inspiring in the end, no fun at all for both sides. Trying to improve a common sense on this issue could be a neat start for all of us and especially some trigger happy people.
' Wrote:The concept of fair is so relative that it is essentially unworkable as a rule in game. How could that have been more fair? Four gunships? Three? Two? One? A Bomber? A Fighter? Should the fighter have had armour upgrades? Is it fair to mount just missiles? Where did this happen? Didn't the guy see them on the scanner? Are we going to introduce rules on how much you can demand?
People still complain about gunboats mounting two missiles as being "unfair". Say a gunboat choosed to play down their ability to kill fighter/bombers, say by choosing to mount regular level 5 turrets rather than GB ones. Said gunboat gets whupped. That isn't "fair".
Thing that gets up my nose the most are the ooc complaints in-game about odds. Totally kills the game.
Ganks are a daily occurence. But not every day for every one. And you never hear about the ganks that go wrong. (cf RHA in Gamma - happened a few times).
The best argument against a gank is a simple RP one - you learn nothing as a combat pilot from killing a enemy who is outnumbered seven to one.
I agree a rule about fair play is not required, people on the receiving end of unfair odds should retreat. I am happy as it is, although we should keep reminding in RP terms to try to remain balance, especially official faction members. Sometimes indies just ignore you, so if you are being ganked, withdraw, dont give them the satisfaction.
Edit: I should have said unworkable rather than not required
' Wrote:I agree a rule about fair play is not required, people on the receiving end of unfair odds should retreat. I am happy as it is, although we should keep reminding in RP terms to try to remain balance, especially official faction members. Sometimes indies just ignore you, so if you are being ganked, withdraw, dont give them the satisfaction.
What LSF did today was a great example for how to act in such a case if you ask me. We can't enforce fairplay that is true but we can encourage it if having more fun is what we care for.
' Wrote:What LSF did today was a great example for how to act in such a case if you ask me. We can't enforce fairplay that is true but we can encourage it if having more fun is what we care for.
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