Now I was taking a step out of this crap. Reading ahead, calmed down for hours. Even before I went to bed, wanted to compare stats, even create a new account to get another Slot for trying out the Greyhound (again) and then being told to cut down any flame.
How would you react if the Falcata or the Tridente would get nerfed?
And yeah, hipocrisy is also pretty cool.
' Wrote:*Jawdrop*
That just made you infinitely high up in my awesome-super-duper-persons list.
Posting about someone elses flame or rage you maybe want to look at yourself.
And I didnt even start about you saying to people that they should learn how to dock, ramming them, calling them a noob in Private Chat.
"Who is it doing this synthetic type of alpha beta psychedelic funkin'?"
' Wrote:Coming from the usual RP purists that go barking mad if someone uses their ships (even if they are allied). Hear. Hear. You'll ditch a ship for a slight pvp disadvantage ? And here's me thinking it was all about the roleplay. Hypocrisy is what it looks like from where I'm standing. (You lot do an awesome job running away almost every time an LN comes along ? Do you fight at all I wonder ? (This of course just for illustrating purposes, you don't hear me judging that.))
Oh and Gloucester, cut down on the personal flames, nerdrage and various other frustrated outings. Get in a skype chat and talk it out. Or go to someone which will hear you. I personally would have stopped reading it after the first "UR PVP WHORE U SUCK U BIASED" like post, and I'm not even a big fan of the recent dev work, but you don't hear me insulting them all over.
Like I said, many factions in the past have use alternatives when their own ships have been inadequate for the job. Like, Xeno taiidans.
' Wrote:What's stopping you from getting an Eagle of Sabre? If you want to fly one, by all means, go for it. No one is stopping you except yourselves.
I would rather have a ship from my own line that is capable, but if my hand is forced, then yes, I will be flying a Sabre instead, and so will many other Rogues. That is a last resort.
Quote:But wait, there's more! You could use Codenames as well.
Newsflash, they nerfed the Greyhound there too. Now it has x4 class 9 slots. If they had left the Greyhound with class 10s then I wouldn't be as annoyed with the changes they made. We asked for the Greyhound to be rebalanced, so they made it worse than it was before.
Sammaels are not a bad weapon at all, on most ships, that is. But the Greyhound suffers from a lack of fire power, and that's the ships fault, not the weapon. But that is an inherent trait of the Greyhound, that is lacks fire power. The devs gave us another turret, which gave us more fire power, but then they reduced the class of our guns, which gave us less fire power. Talk about going round in circles.
' Wrote:You'll ditch a ship for a slight pvp disadvantage ?
It was a "slight" pvp disadvantage back in 4.84, when the Greyhound was "merely" a sucky ship. Since then, its armor has been nerfed, its shields, weapons, and powerplant have been nerfed, and, just to rub salt in the wound, it's been given a very large model. We didn't ditch the ship for a "slight" pvp advantage. Now that it's passed beyond "extreme" into the realm of "rediculous", we're considering giving our pilots a chance at actually winning once in a while.
' Wrote:And here's me thinking it was all about the roleplay. Hypocrisy is what it looks like from where I'm standing. (You lot do an awesome job running away almost every time an LN comes along ? Do you fight at all I wonder ? (This of course just for illustrating purposes, you don't hear me judging that.))
Of course we run. What sort of robber would just sit there if the US Army was coming after them? Dur.
' Wrote:Like I said, many factions in the past have use alternatives when their own ships have been inadequate for the job. Like, Xeno taiidans.
I would rather have a ship from my own line that is capable, but if my hand is forced, then yes, I will be flying a Sabre instead, and so will many other Rogues. That is a last resort.
Well, then, this is your choice. If you want a ship to fight Bombers, Freighters, Small Transports, and Light Fighters, pick the Greyhound, but if you don't want that, pick something else. This is your choice and no one is stopping you from making it.
' Wrote:Newsflash, they nerfed the Greyhound there too. Now it has x4 class 9 slots. If they had left the Greyhound with class 10s then I wouldn't be as annoyed with the changes they made. We asked for the Greyhound to be rebalanced, so they made it worse than it was before.
So, you asked for maneuverability, and it has become more agile, no? So, your wishes have been fulfilled. However, I see that you dislike the other side of this. Less firepower? But you got a turret, so that is more firepower. It sounds like that thing I learned about in Physics. Equilibrium?
' Wrote:Sammaels are not a bad weapon at all, on most ships, that is. But the Greyhound suffers from a lack of fire power, and that's the ships fault, not the weapon. But that is an inherent trait of the Greyhound, that is lacks fire power. The devs gave us another turret, which gave us more fire power, but then they reduced the class of our guns, which gave us less fire power. Talk about going round in circles.
I wanna write more but I'll be late for my bus.
Maneuverability goes up, and firepower goes down. it's like an evenly weighed scale or something. There must be a word for that. It isn't equilibrium. But it's close. Maybe a synonym. Oh, balance. Right. They gave you something, and so they took something else. That sounds just about right. I'll make a diagram of what balance is in Physics, and then make one that is synonymous to Disco. Okay? Okay.
These two weights are resting on a meter stick suspended on a see-saw at different points. The one on the right weighs 20 Newtons and is 31 centimeters away from the center of the meter stick. The second weight is of an unknown mass at 10 centimeters away from the center of the meter stick. How much must the weight weigh in order to balance the meter stick?
First, lets draw a force diagram.
Alright, now this is obviously a torque problem, so we'll use the torque formula, F x l x sin(a) = T, where F is force, l is radius, a is angle, and T is Torque. Because the net force is 0, these torques must be equal to each other. So, our equation becomes F x l x sin(a) = F x l x sin(a). Plugging in the values, we get 20(.31) = x(.10). Doing algebra, the weight weighs 62 newtons.
Easy, right? Now lets apply it to Disco.
Thankfully, we're taping two meter sticks together this time. We're also putting the balance right between them. Rather nice of this textbook. So, the Greyhound as it is now is on the right. The one on the left is right after it received its buff and the turret/gun wasn't accounted for. So, Force of 5 Gun + Turning = F?1 + F?2. What are those forces, though? I think I got them. Force of mount class and force of powerplant! Perfect!
Get it? Whenever you try and think about balance, just remember the meter sticks....
So you have five guns, a faster fighter, and an Eagle Plant. That isn't bad in the slightest. You can kill transports, freighters, light fighters, and bombers with a fast ship that has moderate firepower. Really, it isn't a hard thing to do. And it's not like you used level 10 guns on Greyhounds before anyway. You said it yourself. Just use a pair of Debs...
' Wrote:It was a "slight" pvp disadvantage back in 4.84, when the Greyhound was "merely" a sucky ship.
What are you talking about? The Greyhound was an amazing ship in .84. If you doubt my credibility, also, you can remember that I was, in fact, in the Rogues back then. I too used full Sammaels on my Greyhound. You know what? I killed stuff, too. The Greyhound was very good back then. It has LF size, VHF plant, and HF maneuverability. That is why it was nerfed, and that is why it is still being tweaked.
NOTE: Pictures not to scale.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
' Wrote:What are you talking about? The Greyhound was an amazing ship in .84. If you doubt my credibility, also, you can remember that I was, in fact, in the Rogues back then. I too used full Sammaels on my Greyhound. You know what? I killed stuff, too. The Greyhound was very good back then. It has LF size, VHF plant, and HF maneuverability. That is why it was nerfed, and that is why it is still being tweaked.
The Greyhound was an amazing ship in 4.84. It was pretty, and it was maneuverable. It was fun to fly.
However, it was NOT fun to fight with, as killing something took forever on account of the nearly nonexistant firepower, and being killed was fairly instantaneous, on account of the nearly nonexistant armor. I was around in 4.84 too, you know, and the only thing I was able to (almost) kill in all that time was another Greyhound in a Connecticut match.
Since branching out from the Liberty Rogues and their craptastic shipline (Barghest and Ptrans excluded), on my FIRST day flying a Nyx, I kill a Tridente. Clearly something other than my own piloting skill was holding me back.
You're not getting the point. I shouldn't have to make that choice, I should be able to fly my own factions ship and not have to worry about crap like this. I want a ship that I know will hold it's own, it doesn't have to be a top of the line ship but it should still be at least capable.
Quote:Maneuverability goes up, and firepower goes down. it's like an evenly weighed scale or something. There must be a word for that. It isn't equilibrium. But it's close. Maybe a synonym. Oh, balance. Right. They gave you something, and so they took something else. That sounds just about right. I'll make a diagram of what balance is in Physics, and then make one that is synonymous to Disco. Okay? Okay.
Funnily enough, this is exactly how I think of balancing. But you seem to be missing something. First, we have the stock Greyhound, as you described it.
LF Size/armament, VHF powerplant/turning (Greyhound turned slower than the Eagle back then, dunno how it turns now) VHF armour/shielding class 10 guns.
Then 4.85 rolls along, and the Greyhound becomes:
VHF size, LF armament, VHF powerplant/turning, HF armour, VHF shielding, class 10 guns.
Okay, so the Greyhound lost it's small size and some of it's armour, no big deal.
Then update 1:
VHF size, LF armament, VHF powerplant/turning, HF armour/shield, class 10 guns.
Hm, seems the Greyhound is losing everything and gaining nothing...
Update 2:
VHF size, LF armament (equivalent to Dagger), light VHF powerplant, HF armour/shield, class 9 guns and turning something better than it used to be.
So lets sum it up shall we?
The Greyhound lost:
LF size
VHF armour
VHF shield
Templar powerplant
Class 10 guns
Greyhound gained:
one turret
some turning
Now, I'm no physicist, but it looks to me like your see-saw is on the other side there, Bacon. It's not like the Greyhound was some over-powered ship in the first place, it was rarely used by the Liberty Rogues since x4 sammaels are incapable of killing a transport shield in 4.85, and when was the last time you saw an indie Greyhound? I haven't seen a single one since 4.85. I know the Mollys use the Greyhound a lot, but why are the BAF complaining about being out-turned by a faster ship when they're flying one of the heaviest fighters in the game? That's like me asking to nerf the Upholder because it can out-turn my Barghest.
If you read the infocard of the Greyhound, it's supposed to be a hybrid of VHF and HF. Now it's just a mediocre HF, as it's only plus side seems to be a light VHF powerplant. Yay. Might as well just remove everything that made it a unique ship and turn it into just another crappy HF that no one uses.
' Wrote:Update 2:
VHF size, LF armament (equivalent to Dagger), light VHF powerplant, HF armour/shield, class 9 guns and turning something better than it used to be.
Dagger has 5 lvl 9s? Some news...
Higher up you are talking about it loosing firepower now... well 4 Sammaels vs 4 Sammaels + lvl5 turret (Belial), you pick what's more.
' Wrote:It's not like the Greyhound was some over-powered ship in the first place, it was rarely used by the Liberty Rogues] since x4 sammaels are incapable of killing a transport shield in 4.85,
I'd say it was overpowered in 4.84, slightly overpowered in 4.85 if used as a mini platform only.
The highlighted part is more interesting, no greyhound is not good for pirating. That's why the Werewolf is awesome at it.
Quote:If you read the infocard of the Greyhound, it's supposed to be a hybrid of VHF and HF. Now it's just a mediocre HF, as it's only plus side seems to be a light VHF powerplant. Yay. Might as well just remove everything that made it a unique ship and turn it into just another crappy HF that no one uses.
I enjoy flying HFs as does any proper fighter-whore, yes they are limited to only being good vs fighters and bombers and excelling in small group fights.
Bacon is pretty much right about not getting something for nothing. Issue with greyhound in 4.85 was that is was too hard to kill, while it was frustrating to fight in. Now it got easier to kill and easier to fight in.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
Well, we didnt use it much because 4 Sammaels are unable to break through a Transport shield, and that was why we wanted a Turret. Even a Deb couldnt help much if you mount it on a Gun Slot.
' Wrote:Bacon is pretty much right about not getting something for nothing. Issue with greyhound in 4.85 was that is was too hard to kill, while it was frustrating to fight in. Now it got easier to kill and easier to fight in.
If you would have asked some people fighting against the Liberty Rogues day in day out you would have heard that the Greyhound was easy to kill in their Guardians, Avengers and Upholders.
I dont see the point of balancing a new balance Idea. If the Ship is bad you give it a buff, but then you already nerfed the next thing again. Means it would stay the same as it was before.
"Who is it doing this synthetic type of alpha beta psychedelic funkin'?"
I have one simple question for those of you who cry about "nerfs":
Did anyone of you even fly the Greyhound after the changes? And how much? A circle around the base?
I flew it before update2 and after it, and my first reaction after update 2 was excitement - it was so much easier to fly...
You take a look at the stats and cry "They nerfed it, now we can't use it." If you, instead, went and tried it out, you would see it is a great ship. You are vulnerable but not more than before the update. Not more than any other HF. You have one more turret slot to use. You yourself said, that you didn't use lvl 10 guns - so why do you cry about that? You wanted an extra slot? You have it! There might be something wrong with Trefoils (and that isn't Greyhound's fault), but certainly not with Sammaels. The Greyhound can keep on a fighter's tail and there the Sammaels just rock. Sure, they aren't great against shields, but you have a Deb for that, don't you? Well, you should. And you can.
Low power you say? Don't make me laugh... It had the powerplant of a heavy Very Heavy Fighter and it was an extreme overkill. Now you have that of a light VHF - on a HF. Still an excellent plant for the ship. Yes, I was using it and saw the performance. I'm not just reading numbers. What about you? You can fire your guns A LOT. You can still MR almost all the time. Admittedly, now you can MR a bit less if you also fire your guns for a second each pass - OH THE HORROR!
All in all, the Greyhound is a wonderful support ship. Not a great pirating ship, but that doesn't matter - it isn't meant to be.
You were told several times, that you have other ships for pirating. And you have 2-3 ships that are the best in their class at it. A VHF, a Bomber and a Transport (this one might not be the best in class). What more do you want?
' Wrote:Low power you say? Don't make me laugh... It had the powerplant of a heavy Very Heavy Fighter and it was an extreme overkill. Now you have that of a light VHF - on a HF. Still an excellent plant for the ship. Yes, I was using it and saw the performance. I'm not just reading numbers. What about you? You can fire your guns A LOT. You can still MR almost all the time. Admittedly, now you can MR a bit less if you also fire your guns for a second each pass - OH THE HORROR!
I would like to ask how you use a minirazor to stop a gunboat, bomber, VHF, HF, LF, or any other ship that outclasses you firepower-wise from engine-killing and then jousting you, blowing you up in the first pass since your armor and shields are total crap.
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