' Wrote:Really, battering on about how the Greyhound should be able to do everything isn't constructive either, unless you suggest all fighters including light fighters should be able to take down a transport with ease. If it's not suited for the job, simple don't use it. Sure people can try, and people do, as I said the Buccaneers pirate with Light Fighters. Use groups and don't use a misfit for a solo operation.
You're missing the point. You're entered a debate half way through and have no idea what's going on.
' Wrote:Now, now ...
That's just wrong.
Greyhound is a HF that performs like a HF. It just used to be more than any other HF.
I don't know any other HF that performs well at solo piracy. They can try and they might succeed.
The Greyhound is supposed to be a hybrid of VHF and HF. That's what you're all forgetting, you've cast away the original idea of the Greyhound's balanced and turned it into something it's not supposed to be. Being of smaller size (well, it used to be at least) with less fire-power and more agility, it also used to have similar defensive capabilities (but slower turning) than the lighter VHFs like the Eagle. But everything that made the Greyhound a VHF/HF hybrid has slowly been stripped away. It's defensive capabilities have been sacrificed for more speed and it's already poor offensive capabilities were reduced further, leaving us with a mediocre HF with less guns and armour of other ships of it's class, like the Switchblade. I'll be interested to see how the Greyhound's turning stacks up against the Switchblade.
All I'm wanting is to give the Greyhound back just a little of it's VHF hybrid stats, just enough to bump it out of mediocrity and give back what once made the ship a unique, fun ship to fly.
Quote:The Z-4800 is the newest vessel form the manufacturers of the pirate line, attempting to get away from their legacy of producing slow and chunky ships, the greyhound is not a great success, but at least partially achieves the objective.
In actuality the Greyhound is not a Heavy Fighter, despite being classed as such, but more of a hybrid of Heavy and Very Heavy combining some of the elements of both. In essence the designers created a less heavily armored and armed ship that is able to out turn most very heavy fighters.
The Greyhound suffers, however, compared to other heavy fighters, lacking the maneuverability of other ships in it's class. This has not stopped this ship becoming one of the favored vessels of the Liberty Rogue and Molly Republic though. As such it is a popular sight throughout space wherever credits are to be had.
We could debate what it was before, but it doesn't matter... it was changed into a HF. Infocards tend to be written to suit the stats, seldom the other way around.
You do realise that Switchblade has more guns than most HFs? The same way that most VHFs have less guns than the Sabre. Why don't you take the regular HF loadout? 4x lvl9 + 2x lvl 8. Greyhound currently has 5x lvl 9. Lvl 8 guns are slightly above half the power of lvl 9s, so the regular loadout is slightly more powerful. (I'm not gonna count it precisely again).
Then again, Greyhound still has a better powerplant than other HFs. The usual HF powerplant is 9000/900, while the Greyhound has 10400/1100. Looks like a decent compensation to me.
' Wrote:We could debate what it was before, but it doesn't matter... it was changed into a HF. Infocards tend to be written to suit the stats, seldom the other way around.
And it doesn't strike you as wrong that what once made the ship unique was changed? Imagine the ****storm if we changed the Eagle's stats to be more HF-like, or we made it heavier. Or what if we made the Chimera turn slower, gave it more fire power. Why shouldn't the balance of the past matter? It's what made the Greyhound unique, it's what gave the Greyhound it's appeal. Now I see no appeal in flying the Greyhound next to other ships like the Eagle and Sabre.
Quote:You do realise that Switchblade has more guns than most HFs? The same way that most VHFs have less guns than the Sabre. Why don't you take the regular HF loadout? 4x lvl9 + 2x lvl 8. Greyhound currently has 5x lvl 9. Lvl 8 guns are slightly above half the power of lvl 9s, so the regular loadout is slightly more powerful. (I'm not gonna count it precisely again).
I'm more interested in how the turning of the Greyhound compares with other HFs. I mentioned the Switchblade because the switchblade and stiletto are the only HFs I've flown regularly.
I took some numbers from Flstat ... they aren't complete and they are just in one direction ... I can't even remember which one right now:P
Well, here they are anyway.
name - max ang. speed (rad/s) - ang. dist. in 5s (rad) - time to 90% ang. speed (s)
Greyhound - 1.2439 - 0.3980 - 0.4493
Executioner - 1.2439 - 0.3893 - 0.4717
Switchblade - 1.2925 - 0.4136 - 0.4490
Kingfisher - 1.1000 - 0.3643 - 0.4145
Kingfisher is the slowest by far, Executioner and Greyhound are almost the same and Switchblade is the fastest.
No surprises there. There's no reason really why the Greyhound can't be a hybrid of VHF/HF like it used to. The original 'problem' described about the Greyhound was it was too hard to hit and could 'spam' mini razors. Yet the changes to the Greyhound seem to reflect little about solving these so called problems. Reducing the shield may make it easier to kill, but certainly not easier to hit. Reducing evasion makes it easier to hit, and increasing turning speed is a nice balance to that. Reducing the powercore solves the mini razor problem, but what does reducing the weapon class achieve? Nothing apart from making the ship less effective at what it's supposed to do.
You punished the Greyhound for being good at fighting, and yet you tell me the Greyhound is supposed to be good at fighting, not piracy. It's not exactly an uber powerful ship spammed by everyone with a green square to pirate ships. We'd like our so-called support ship to have some appeal to fly, so that it may compete with our common enemies such as the Guardian and Manta.
The Greyhound has an always will suffer from a low attack power, now it also has very low defensive power, with a smaller shield and small armour. I've been playing pokemon a lot to pass the time until I get my internet back, and in pokemon they have a tier system. One of these tiers is called 'Never Used' because the pokemon listed in the category either have low base stats, poor move pools or there are other pokemon that serve the same role and are just plain better. This sounds like a fitting description of the present Greyhound.
So what would I like to see become of the Greyhound? Increasing the weapon class won't do much apart from restoring some of the Greyhound's hybrid attributes, you'll find most players will still opt to use faster weapons rather than codenames. At least in Liberty, the Trefoil users might feel differently. With decreased evasion, the Greyhound is easier to hit than before, so returning it's shield class to 10 may help to absorb some of the damage in group combat, where the Greyhound is supposed to excel. Cargo space should be reduced, it doesn't need a large cargo hold due to the ship not being designed for piracy. As for the turret, if it comes down to one or the other then simply make the turret face backwards, while we did argue for the turret to be added in the first place we never would have done so if we knew how negatively the subsequent 'balances' would effect the Greyhound.
Seems rather contradictory. The reasons you state that the ship is wrong seem to change every few posts or something. To me, the ship doesn't lack anywhere enough for it to be broken, you cant say it even lacks firepower ever while also saying "could 'spam' mini razors". It even has more firepower than most HFs now. Again, im not sure what exactly is wrong with the ship being a HF opposed to a HF VHF Hybrid, even though it still has a large gen for example.
Quote:Seems rather contradictory. The reasons you state that the ship is wrong seem to change every few posts or something. To me, the ship doesn't lack anywhere enough for it to be broken, you cant say it even lacks firepower ever while also saying "could 'spam' mini razors". It even has more firepower than most HFs now. Again, im not sure what exactly is wrong with the ship being a HF opposed to a HF VHF Hybrid, even though it still has a large gen for example.
There are many things 'wrong' with the ship, as you would put it. But they are not all necessarily bad. When you look at these aspects Individually, many of them can be rather good, or not that bad at all, but when you put them together they get degenerative worse. For example, lower firepower is okay when it's pared with fast turning and evasion, like light fighters. But when low firepower is combined with slow turning then you have a problem. (Not saying the Greyhound is slow, this is just an example.)
With the Greyhound, you see, we have low armour and shielding combined with a large size and low evasion. On top of this we have low fire power, with a high powercore and good turning. Due to it's low firepower, the combat in the Greyhound lasts longer than in more offensive ships. This means the ship needs to be able to survive long enough and evade enough attacks to out-compete their opponents. But with low survivability and low fire power, I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from. The high turning does allow the Greyhound to outmaneuver some of it's opponents, but at the end of the day it's impossible to fight without getting hit. Especially in group combat, it needs something to help it soak up the damage.
I feel with an increase in shield power the Greyhound will be able to survive in combat long enough to make it's low fire power count for something. Low fire power, quick turning, and soaking up fire power leaves the Greyhound in a good niche for group combat. In single combat, the Greyhound will still be out-matched by VHFs, who can deal out more damage and have higher armour than the Greyhound, but it will stand a better chance provided the pilot knows what they're doing. Similarly in piracy, the Greyhound won't be all that useful unless the pilot knows what they're doing and has the right loadout. But it will be capable of preforming both roles as long as the pilot's skill permits.
![[Image: SLRU.png]](http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv46/Nighthawkashes/SLRU.png)
![[Image: RrJ0WDv.jpeg]](https://i.imgur.com/RrJ0WDv.jpeg)
