If I had guns with those speeds on my fighters, I'd be extremely hard pressed not to hit my opponents. Those of us who can already aim would just rip everyone else apart with these. I'm assuming the Privateer mod has faster fighters than we do? If not, they just aren't accustomed to the flying skill that many members of this community have.. I could count a dozen people who would be nigh invincible if they had fighter guns with these stats.
I guess the answer to this question ties into another. Do you want a community that is frindlier to new players or established players. The current system heavily favors more established and practiced fliers, which tends to scare off new players. Face it, it sucks to get constantly space raped while trying to learn maps, keymaps, weapons types and comparisons, ship types and comparisons, faction role play, and the best ways to turn a credit. Yes, we have a no kill level limit, but that really doesn't give enough time to the average player to learn all this, gather enough credits, and faction rep before the hammer drops. So, we make the combat system a little easier to master and being a noob doesn't always equal cannon fodder.
The established players can still have an edge, coded and expensive weapons, but the noob would still have a chance to score a kill or two on the average players.
I can see how the elite players wouldn't like this, but at this point I, personally, am so frustrated that I don't really give a &*^%. The elite would say no to the new system, but that is just because while learning the new system and adapting they would go back to being cannon fodder for awhile. But think, elite, if you don't like being the cannon fodder for a few fights, hows it feel to the average or new player that is always cannon fodder? Nobody wants to play a game they always lose.
Also, the system proposed would make the light fighters truly dangerous again, while not decreasing the lethality of the heavier ships. This would help the game balance, not disrupt it. As it stands, light fighters stink because of thier limited energy and the high refire rates. Slow the refire of everybody and this becomes less of a problem. Yes, everybody will be more accurate, but what is more likely to pull off the dodge, the LF, the VHf, or the Cruiser? The current system has VHF's wielding the equivalent of five inch cannons and swatting LF's out of the sky with them. Swatting a LF or even HF with a razor or snac should be once in a million game winning buzzer shots, not commonplace. Razors and snacs should be effective against gunboats and bigger ships, but not Bombers and smaller, while the smaller weapons should be effective against light ships but not heavy. Then you switch between them as needed, not snac or razor everything.
So in conclusion, the current system heavily favors the older established players who have the funds to buy heavy ships, codes, snacs/razors, and the experience and time needed to master them. On the other hand, the newly proposed system would allow for less of a gap between elite and noob and allow for a more balanced pvp experience. It would also help to balance the ship classes and force players to choose what weapons to use in any given situation rather than just razor sniping everything.
"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer
An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.
' Wrote:So in conclusion, the current system heavily favors the older established players who have the funds to buy heavy ships, codes, snacs/razors, and the experience and time needed to master them. On the other hand, the newly proposed system would allow for less of a gap between elite and noob and allow for a more balanced pvp experience. It would also help to balance the ship classes and force players to choose what weapons to use in any given situation rather than just razor sniping everything.
<<< Big No here. You would ruin a lot of pvp fun. And this is about pvp / rp balance for me.
Quote:<<< Big No here. You would ruin a lot of pvp fun. And this is about pvp / rp balance for me.
So, if it's more equal it's not fun for you? It's not fun if you don't have an advantage over others? It's not fun if you don't win all the time? How is making it so that more people have a chance of scoring a few wins destroying the fun of pvp? Combat would still be dynamic and involve a good deal of skill, it would just be a little more balanced and provide the noobs with a chance to win once and a while. Maybe you should ask what it says about you if making a thing fair and balanced ruins your fun.
"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer
An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.
I don't think half as many people as you think suffer from "getting bullied" by the experienced players. I would put myself as an example.
Keep in mind that there are other ways of making things equal... And also keep in mind that many people do not like to be "snipers", even those that you would call "noobs". Again, I would put myself as an example.
Lastly, keep in mind that some experienced players are not necessary good PvPers, because that's not why Disco is a popular mod.
Quote:I don't think half as many people as you think suffer from "getting bullied" by the experienced players. I would put myself as an example.
Well, I have talked to as many new players, and even experienced players that are just average at pvp, as were willing to discuss it. All I talked with showed a marked frustration at the system, in just the areas I highlited. I know quite a few who quit over it. You may be fine with the current system, and that's ok, but others aren't or this topic wouldn't be so busy. Also, I wouldn't say all that many are bullies, most talk with you about the fight, give pointers and support, but that doesn't matter much after you died for the 30'th straight time, does it?
Quote:Keep in mind that there are other ways of making things equal... And also keep in mind that many people do not like to be "snipers", even those that you would call "noobs". Again, I would put myself as an example.
If you know any other way of making things more balanced and equal, I would be happy to listen, it just happens that this is the best thread on it I have seen so far. And I agree that many don't want to be snipers, and this change would certainly help in that regard. There would still be plenty of spray and pray guns, good mines, and heavy torps for variety. Actually, your comments here seem to support my arguement.
Quote:Lastly, keep in mind that some experienced players are not necessary good PvPers, because that's not why Disco is a popular mod.
Oh heck, I know that. I'm only average myself, part of why I support the change of systems. I been around for awhile, though I don't post much, but during that time I have spent time explaining the rules to new players and listening to thier thoughts on the pvp system. I haven't stated my own untill now, but I certainly listened to a variety of other players thoughts on pvp here.
"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer
An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.
' Wrote:So in conclusion, the current system heavily favors the older established players who have the funds to buy heavy ships, codes, snacs/razors, and the experience and time needed to master them. On the other hand, the newly proposed system would allow for less of a gap between elite and noob and allow for a more balanced pvp experience. It would also help to balance the ship classes and force players to choose what weapons to use in any given situation rather than just razor sniping everything.
' Wrote:So, if it's more equal it's not fun for you? It's not fun if you don't have an advantage over others? It's not fun if you don't win all the time? How is making it so that more people have a chance of scoring a few wins destroying the fun of pvp? Combat would still be dynamic and involve a good deal of skill, it would just be a little more balanced and provide the noobs with a chance to win once and a while. Maybe you should ask what it says about you if making a thing fair and balanced ruins your fun.
Today's noobs are tomorrow's pros. Changing the combat system to throw off the 'elites' will only be a temporary fix. Before long, those same people will master the new system and be much better than the noobs just joining the game.
Are you going to change the combat system every 3 months just to make pvp even for noobs and 'elites'?
What you failed to realize is that Freelancer is a skill based game. Those people who have put the time and effort into this game are subsequently better than those people just starting. That's the way it's supposed to be, that's the way it will always be. You say it's not fair that people who have been playing the game for ages to be better than people who are just starting, but I say it's unfair to those people who have been playing for ages and spent time practicing to suddenly have some green noob come along and kill them.
Another thing you fail to realize, is that every time you fight someone better than yourself at PVP you also subsequently get better at fighting. Over time, you get better to the point when you can compete with these people and are no longer a 'noob' at PvP. Then, eventually, the old 'elites' leave and the new wave of noobs come in, and it is you that kills them, and them that complain at you for being better.
Strom, do you know how much work it takes to get good at this game? Or any game, for that matter.
I remember getting space raped seven times in a day by seven different people. In the days when the server peak load was 25 players.
Quote:I can see how the elite players wouldn't like this, but at this point I, personally, am so frustrated that I don't really give a &*^%.
If you don't give a toss, then neither do we.
This game is not geared towards the casual gamer, nor those with difficiencies in reactions, aim and judgement that they cannot overcome using other means. It's geared towards those who can do at least one of those things and who practice for countless hours.
I honestly think those who've played this game for those countless hours deserve to be a little better than a newcomer to the game.
I'd rather win a battle that I am meant to win when you compare overall time played practicing in hours. And I can tell you, I've practiced into the small hours of the morning many many times. And I train less than everyone else.
Quote:Also, the system proposed would make the light fighters truly dangerous again, while not decreasing the lethality of the heavier ships. This would help the game balance, not disrupt it.
You're mad.
In my VHF, I'd simply take some shots to line you up. If it's most LF pilots, they wont be used to the extra turning and reactions they get from it (due to the lower mass). They'd be more prone to mistakes, and its fairly easy to capitalise on them against LFs. LFs currently, and will always rely on flawless flying. Very few people can fly flawlessly. Hence, everyone else thinks they're crap.
Quote:So in conclusion, the current system heavily favors the older established players who have the funds to buy heavy ships, codes, snacs/razors, and the experience and time needed to master them. On the other hand, the newly proposed system would allow for less of a gap between elite and noob and allow for a more balanced pvp experience. It would also help to balance the ship classes and force players to choose what weapons to use in any given situation rather than just razor sniping everything.
I think one of the things that digital anvil tried to accomplish was the ease of use of this game when you pick it up from the shelves. It's actually far easier to play this game than it is to get your head around just how many hotkeys there are in games where you have to actually level up, like WoW. A complete noob can come in, learn the basics and then, with raw talent, start decimating those below. It'll take time to refine the talent, but he can do it as soon as he has the equipment. On the other hand with a game like WoW, how long does it take until you reach level 99? Too long. Much too long.
I'll admit though, that since the introduction of up and down strafes, things have got a tad harder for newcomers, especially those who have already played on vanilla servers where the only strafes are left and right.
That said, heavy ships are compulsory.
Codes, they're shocking unless you can use them well.
SNAC's/Razors. Fair enough, they are a bit expensive, especially the former when it is compulsory to mount on a bomber.
This newly proposed system would not even out anything between the casual gamer and the experienced player. It would skewer things in favour of those with superior aim. It might mean that I could actually beat razr. Now if only they would nerf nuclear mines...:rolleyes:
' Wrote:Today's noobs are tomorrow's pros. Changing the combat system to throw off the 'elites' will only be a temporary fix. Before long, those same people will master the new system and be much better than the noobs just joining the game.
Are you going to change the combat system every 3 months just to make pvp even for noobs and 'elites'?
What you failed to realize is that Freelancer is a skill based game. Those people who have put the time and effort into this game are subsequently better than those people just starting. That's the way it's supposed to be, that's the way it will always be. You say it's not fair that people who have been playing the game for ages to be better than people who are just starting, but I say it's unfair to those people who have been playing for ages and spent time practicing to suddenly have some green noob come along and kill them.
Another thing you fail to realize, is that every time you fight someone better than yourself at PVP you also subsequently get better at fighting. Over time, you get better to the point when you can compete with these people and are no longer a 'noob' at PvP. Then, eventually, the old 'elites' leave and the new wave of noobs come in, and it is you that kills them, and them that complain at you for being better.
In conclusion, less QQ more pew pew.
You aren't listening to what I am saying. I am not saying that skill and experience shouldn't be a part of the game, or that noobs should pwn experienced players.
I haven't failed to realize that freelancer is a skill based game, all games are skill based. Even roulette has an element of skill in it. And yes, people who have played longer are, on the whole, going to be better than the new players. But that doesn't mean you can call gang raping the new players fair. They aren't going to think it is, and from what I have seen, the vast majority quit. Ask the admins how many short life accounts and abandoned accounts there are. Now there is always some turnover, but what I see here is down right rediculous. Also, look up the definition of Tyro. The way this is set up, if a noob with a little skill and the opposing ship type comes along, he/she should have a shot at taking you. That isn't true now, and I've seen that first hand. The ships and weapons are unbalanced, most everybody has noted and agreed to that. This system would help to alleviate that. It would also pull a little emphisis off the more difficult to master skills and put a little more on an easier to master skill, making it more player friendly. Because, dispite your claims that anybody can be an expert, we all know that isn't true. There are skill limits, time constraints, and hardware issuses. And if the average man can't pick it up and win a few within a month or so, he's gonna move on to a game he can have fun with, which is what is happening here.
In conclusion, lets fix whats broke AND make it more enjoyable for the new peeps, too.
"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer
An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.