Being a bias person in control of the very minor faction as it is now, the sso|, i will tell people what i think of this situation.
I have never really understood why AW, who claim to act in the interests of the Zoner people, attack Bounty Hunters such as myself. I understand that we attacked the HF first, but we were contracted to do that. Its our job and Zoners also hire many BH NPC's to patrol their surrounding areas. Also, the only missions you see on FP9 are those of the Bounty Hunters. I do not understand why i am not allowed in a system in which my relative NPC's work.
I endevour to act as bounty hunters would. Is it so out of the question to kill lane hackers as a bounty hunter? Our NPC's keep the peace in Theta by killing Corsairs. Yet the corsairs do not attack (yet) Zoner stations for allowing bounty hunters to dock there. (i know there are rumours about a possible war but it hasnt happened yet).
AW doesnt need to act like Zoners to protect them, but they need to act like Zoners to police the area. As it stands where AW are not acting as zoners (by enlarge), they should only assume a defencive role in Omicron Theta. This means protection of any kind to traders. However, if they want to keep a sizable control of Omicron theta, i suggest using diplomacy which is at least half accurate to their NPC's stances.
Now to the Order. Dont you think it would be mutually benificial to ally with a faction that primarily kills nomads. They dont kill Liberty because they enjoy it, and if it was their choice, they would be allied to almost every faction to fight the nomads. both the Zoners and the Order pass through space infested with nomads. Why would they not ally against this threat? Zoners however have no part in hostilities between Liberty and the Order, hence why you dont see Zoners killing Liberty ever.
ANY alliance made by Zoners to a particular faction is against another NPC faction only. I have no idea why the GMG are allied to the Zoners, but this could be due to the fact that the GMG control virtually all of Sirius H-fuel supply.
You see, Zoners arent allied with the Order to fight Liberty, but only to fight the nomads, which is the primary purpose of the Order.
If you ally with the Outcasts, what is the reason? All it does is infuriate the Corsairs. If you ally with Lane Hackers, Corsairs are likely to get very annoyed. However, as you say you arent purely Zoners, then all these alliances are possible without question. However, you cant then restrict access of others (say corsairs) to zoner bases whatsoever, because you are not acting in the interest of the Zoner people. Zoners want to stay NEUTRAL to everyone, and therefore this NPC faction should not be confused with AW. AW in this case can try to force all hostile parties out of Theta, but cannot restrict access. So they cant say anyone is acting out of RP if their target speed docks on a Zoner station, seeing as AW arent acting in the interest of the Zoners.
Well first off, McNeo, your ships didn't only shoot HF. In the first fight sso| appeared in, you guys fought both HF and AW. That would be why we declared you hostile. And that is why we don't allow sso| near. Don't like it, than you shouldn't have accepted the deal, don't blame us for it.
Now, they might have allied The Order to attack Nomads, but why would they really need an alliance to do that. And if Liberty Navy suddenly started invading Omicron Minor, the Zoners would be helping The Order, due to being allied.
And McNeo, I don't think you undestood what I wrote.. I said;
Quote:Now to make this PERFECTLY clear.
AW is aligned with Zoners. We use their tag, their bases. We defend them. If you attacked them, we'd be the guys hunting you. We use them as they fit us THE BEST, they fit our RP and way of doing things (neutral unless allied or you do something to provoke us).
I did not say we were purely Zoners. I did however, say we were very closely affiliated with them.
Secondly, we do not restrict any one type of faction (ex; Corsairs, BHG, Liberty Navy, etc) from Theta. Never have, and it will only happen if the NPCs become hostile with them.
We do however stop factions that are hostile to us, for very clear reasons. We will stop sso|, and FEAR because we are at war/hostile with each other. That does NOT mean that any player wearing a BHG tag will be attacked by us. Just the people in the sso| PC faction.
As I stated before, neutral unless allied or provoked. We do not hold all characters flying a faction tag responsible for actions of a player faction.
Quote:AW doesnt need to act like Zoners to protect them, but they need to act like Zoners to police the area. As it stands where AW are not acting as zoners (by enlarge), they should only assume a defencive role in Omicron Theta. This means protection of any kind to traders.
There seems to be a misconception here..
We do take only a defensive stance. All we do in Theta is defend the people attacked there, especially traders, and then we keep out people who are at war with us. Bs| owns Minor, but I doubt many people would complain if SA (Liberty) entered Minor and Bs| (Order) fought them out. Thats what we have done with Theta. Only those who are at war with us, or attacked people we defended in Theta.
' Wrote:Well first off, McNeo, your ships didn't only shoot HF. In the first fight sso| appeared in, you guys fought both HF and AW. That would be why we declared you hostile. And that is why we don't allow sso| near. Don't like it, than you shouldn't have accepted the deal, don't blame us for it.
We were paid to fight the HF only if i remember correctly. You simply interfered in our business.
If i am wrong about this i apologise (not as my BHG guy, but as myself).
' Wrote:Now, they might have allied The Order to attack Nomads, but why would they really need an alliance to do that. And if Liberty Navy suddenly started invading Omicron Minor, the Zoners would be helping The Order, due to being allied.
I did not say we were purely Zoners. I did however, say we were very closely affiliated with them.
Secondly, we do not restrict any one type of faction (ex; Corsairs, BHG, Liberty Navy, etc) from Theta. Never have, and it will only happen if the NPCs become hostile with them.
The liberty navy are already frequently sighted in Omicron Minor. I was asked for contraband from one of their NPC pilots today in Minor. They also have alaska more or less blockaded due to the presence of a high level prison station there. I dont see zoners attacking liberty...or even attempting to go near their space. So you see, the Zoners have no active role in killing anyone but the Nomads in their alliance.
On the next bit:
You say you are not purely Zoners, but closely affiliated. Why so many wars? even if you werent the ones who started it, a typical Zoner leader would try to resolve the situation peacefully rather than wasting Zoner lives on a fruitless war and defeating the reason why the Zoners exist in the first place...to be Neutral.
Also, You say you do not restrict any faction. I understand that completely and i understand your reasoning later on about PC factions only. However, due to the diplomacy of the AW (allying to lane hackers for example), you insisted on protecting a perfectly viable target for a bounty hunter. NPC bounty hunters hunt lane hackers. You see them in Manchester and magellan. Due to this, shouldn't you kill all bounty hunter NPC's because they are hunting your lane hacker allies.
The reason the sso| and AW are hostile is because of two conditions that were fulfilled. The sso| were paid to kill HF, who were allied to AW. If you are closely affiliated to the zoners, isnt makeing an alliance such as this, and generally leaning towards the Outcast side of the fold (read: Corsair and Outcast war) out of the question?
' Wrote:We do however stop factions that are hostile to us, for very clear reasons. We will stop sso|, and FEAR because we are at war/hostile with each other. That does NOT mean that any player wearing a BHG tag will be attacked by us. Just the people in the sso| PC faction.
As I stated before, neutral unless allied or provoked. We do not hold all characters flying a faction tag responsible for actions of a player faction.
There seems to be a misconception here..
The first bit of that was already discussed earlier in this post. FEAR to my knowledge were directly contracted to hunt you, so thats fair. The sso| werent contracted to kill you directly, but due to the alliance between you and the Hellfire legion (which shouldnt have happened considering you view yourself as closely affiliated with the zoners).
I do not have anything to say on the second part of that quote as it is not relevant to the discussion here.
' Wrote:We do take only a defensive stance. All we do in Theta is defend the people attacked there, especially traders, and then we keep out people who are at war with us. Bs| owns Minor, but I doubt many people would complain if SA (Liberty) entered Minor and Bs| (Order) fought them out. Thats what we have done with Theta. Only those who are at war with us, or attacked people we defended in Theta.
Recently, Majkp was chased out of Omicron Alpha by AW. I dont call that defencive. Also, do you protect actuall zoner interests rather than your own as you defend Theta from people like the sso|. Zoners would be pretty happy to allow any bounty hunter, NPC or PC to operate in that area. As closely affiliated to the Zoners, the validity of your hostility towards the sso| is questionable because of the conditions under which it happened. Therefore, by shunning a bounty hunter PC faction, protecting your own interests in the process, you are serving your primary role (protecting your interests) under the increasingly thin viel of protecting Zoner interests.
I use the sso| as an example, as many other factions may feel the same way. I cannot comment on other factions much as i do not know the full facts about them. None of this is mean't to be flame. Just a debate on the many issues discussed in this thread.
You ask why so many wars? We've started on our own.. About 1, maybe 2.
And I don't think you read your history very well.. We do try to resolve our wars peacefully, then resort to massive force when that fails. A very recent example is when we, instead of demanding SA/SF/sso|/FEAR all to go neutral to HF before we got out of the war, we simple demanded that SF get out of the war. We got in because SF joined in, unbalancing it. So we came in to balance the sides. Once the SA told SF to accept, and they pulled out, so did we.
And for the SA's latest attacks on Vespucci, our ONLY demand was that they stop the attacks and go neutral. If we were not looking for a peaceful way to end the conflict, we would have demanded reparations or something from them, all we demanded was neutrality..
And before the sso| attacked us during the war, we DID stay out of you attacking the HF. We stay out of simple unlawful vs. lawful fights, and only get involved to defend our allies, not help them attack, and thats when we are nearby. For example, we have a ship sitting in Theta, HF gets shot in California, we stay out of it as we are way far away. However, if we were in Cali than we would assist the HF. But even if we were in Cali, and HF go attack the planet, we wouldn't help them, as its them attacking (this all assuming we are on neutral, not hostile, terms with the person they are fighting). But if Liberty went all out and attacked Vespucci, AW would get very involved.
So before sso| fought us, we wouldn't do anything except defend HF if they were attacked by the sso| near us.
If sso| came to us with a peace proposal, we would likely be willing to talk.. You haven't however, so why wouldn't we remain hostile?
And the stuff with FEAR started awhile ago actually. They might have been contracted against us, but we were already at war with them.
Long ago, FEAR attacked AW, we fought alot, they shield ran alot... They eventually left the server. Then they came back a few weeks before this war started.. They came into theta with a Corsair Dread and some other ship. They shot Korrd's bomber, unprovoked. We fought them off. We were hostile ever since. Again, we did not initiate hostilities, or provoke them in any way.
Because of our hostile status with sso|, we are not going to let an sso| fighter run around in Theta and/or Omicron-74. That is why Majkp was ESCORTED out. We did NOT fire on him. We gave him a chance to leave peacefully, he did, we escorted him out of Theta. I also said he was not allowed to attack Outcasts, whom we are friendly with. Normally, we wouldn't stop sso| from fighting them, but since Outcasts are friendly, and sso| are hostile, we did. After he refused to move on through Alpha to Tau-37 where he said he would go, we went to find him. Eventually he logged off. We PEACEFULLY escorted him out of Theta.. A hostile ship escorted out of Theta. I'd call that pretty defensive and very Zoner like, when dealing with a hostile.
In all our wars, we eventually came up (almost always the first side to offer a peace settlement, even when we are winning) with peace settlements. Just like we did in the SA/SF v AW/HF war. We've had 5-6 wars with SF... We started one, and that was when we attacked an SF because we were paid to do so.. They refused to go back to neutral after it. All the others were started by the SF. Twice they attacked Tau-37 (first time was during the time when factions owned Territory, and Tau-37 was ours.) Other times they've attacked us.
We had a brief (about.. 3 hours) war [more like hostile period] with RM. That was because one of their BS pilots got trigger happy and shot at my AW Eagle.. Again, I talked to RM leader (Angel) and we ended it peacefully, which resulted in the no-entry zone of Sigma-13 for any RM or AW capships. Peaceful end? I'd think so..
In all our wars, when at war we play it very aggressively. But we also give our enemy a settlement he can agree to or disagree with. Most of the time they agree.. Eventually.
Many people just look at the amount of wars and hostile statuses and declare us very un-Zoner. But they don't look into it very far, and don't see that almost exclusively, we are reacting from being attacked, or allies being attacked. They also don't see where we always offer peaceful alternatives to continuing the war, ones that the leaders of whom we are at war with, can discuss with us and change or agree/disagree to.
Next time we go to war, ask yourself; who started it? Who got provoked into a response? Who has offered any peaceful resolutions? Usually you'll see AW offering one, if not you will probably see one eventually.
And what is the difference between Zoners allying GMG (though I think they should be allied to IMG, not GMG) and AW allying HF? GMG is lawful and against pirates, HF is the exact opposite. If Zoners can have an ally that would make their rep increasingly worse with other factions such as Outcasts and Corsairs, why can't AW have an ally that would tarnish our reputation with a few factions as well, such as Corsairs and Liberty?
As far as I can see right now, people's problem with AW taking the Zoner alignment right now, is because of our number of wars/hostiles, and the fact we have allies.
The Zoners have allies, we can too, and still be Zoner. If we acted purely Zoner, we would still be allowed allies.
The wars, as explained above are almost exclusively caused by an attack on an AW or AW ally. I've also explained above, that just because a faction makes a small lawful vs unlawful attack on an ally, doesn't necessarily mean we will get involved. Big attacks, and invasions is different however. I feel that to be pretty Zoner-like in that we wait until we HAVE to get involved, before we do, and then we are willing to go to neutral with factions that were involved (SA is already neutral [recently changed to unfriendly due to attack of Vespucci]). Very few occasions will we remain hostile with a faction. So far thats been Phantoms, due Luciaden's RP, FEAR for repeated attacks and unwillingness to become neutral (they keep attacking us no matter what, why I have some suspicions, but no proof yet..), and then CUFF who I think almost everyone here agrees deserves to be at a state of constant hostility.. They did come to the server for the sole sake of attacking AW after all..:dry:
History does pass me by, and i cannot spend a day of my life looking up the history. You have also proved to me that i dont know facts about who i am trying to question.
The many issues i have brought up in my previous post have not been adressed by you directly, but rather indirectly.
But the issue on HF vs (insert names here) is fine. However, i did not bring into question directly AW's conduct during the recent war, only that its alliance with HF in the first place was questionable.
Having only 2 allies, one of which is the GMG, makes Zoner diplomacy one of two things. Either very complicated, or very simple. Your statement about having alliances to balance it out is all well and good, but politically if the Zoners adopted your current diplomacy in terms of allies and friendlies, the Corsairs nor the IMG would stand for it. (this is in terms of NPCs).
Now, as a response you say "we are closely affiliated to zoners, we arent purely zoners."
ok, thats fine. However, having such contraversial alliances isnt such a good thing. I know you cant back down, because you and AW have pride, and more importantly, believe you are right. The same is true with me and others who participate in heated debates about this subject.
Being closely affiliated means that you have to at least in some ways mirror your relavent factions status with other factions. Alliance with HF, and freindly with outcasts would not go down well with Corsairs as i said earlier. With all these alliances and hostilities, how can you possibly hope to be representing the Zoner people.
I cannot comment on past wars knowing next to nothing about them.
It is getting increasingly late and my mind is wandering badly. i will continue my side of the debate tomorrow hopefully. I would tell you which questions you missed if my eyes werent closing as I type.
Actually an insert here McNeo, you began firing randomly at HF ships LONG BEFORE you ever were hired. For the record, hell when I first made HF I was buying weapons in an unknown system (this was when we were just Mercs nothing more) I was fired on by your Battleship when I was buying guns for mine. (A NOD Osiris saved my ass when I was dock raped by you). Now say whatever everything above is true.
Okay, so here's what I think needs to happen. In order to help solve these problems, AW needs to CLEARLY state what being closely affiliated with the Zoners means. To me, this means that AW would be allowed to have limited control over Theta, but should not be able to have alliances with the Lane Hacker affiliates. They, if closely related, would have the GMG and Outcasts on their side, but not the Lane Hackers. However, this view varies between people, so, Dab, I think that you need to tell us EXACTLY what closely affiliated means; this includes answering every single question about it until it is about 85% conceded between the community.
I believe that AW should control this system because of a problem I experienced a while back in January. We had about five or six SF on, and about five or six Phantoms on. At the time, the general opinion was that a house only controls their system (at least what I was reading from people), and I was afraid of limited Jurisdiction in Leeds (where the Phantoms were). While I eventually did have the SF move in to attack, the same could happen with AW. If, say, SF is in Omicron Theta attacking Zoners or traders, I would fully expect them to stop us. However, I don't think that AW should have scanning rights of ships coming through Theta as they are no longer police there.
Quote:And I don't think you read your history very well.. We do try to resolve our wars peacefully, then resort to massive force when that fails. A very recent example is when we, instead of demanding SA/SF/sso|/FEAR all to go neutral to HF before we got out of the war, we simple demanded that SF get out of the war. We got in because SF joined in, unbalancing it. So we came in to balance the sides. Once the SA told SF to accept, and they pulled out, so did we.
Also, I would like to point out that preventing war is not based on a "demands" system. Instead, it is based on compromise. Demanding something is the way to lead to war, not prevent it. Finally, AW was the first to attack SF, which I believe was an assault on Leeds...
True, we were still engaging HF forces, but in my opinion, the AW shouldn't have been (or shouldn't be) allied with the HF.
Hype
Retired A very big thanks to Dark Oddity who put my signature pic together
McNeo, our alliance with HF causes no more problems with other factions than Zoners alliance with GMG would. First and foremost, allying with the GMG would put Zoners at odds with Rheinland. They would also put them at odds with Outcasts and their whole alliance, as Outcast are the dominant pirate force in Sigma-13 around the TLs. GMG is also hostile with the Corsairs. AW's alliance with HF would make Outcast alliance happy, Corsair alliance unhappy, GMG unhappy. So the same amount of happy and unhappy factions on both sides. Not to mention Zoners are also allied to The Order, AW's only other ally is SiN|Tech, and thats mostly from RP we've done. And SiN|Tech is quite the neutrality person that The Order is not.. So in total, we disrupt reps less with our alliances than Zoners do with theirs.
Our alliance are almost the same as Zoner's except different factions. One semi-lawful and one unlawful, while Zoners have one semi-lawful and one lawful. The only difference is we have an unlawful ally in place of the Zoner's lawful ally. And if you say having an unlawful ally against the Zoner's lawful ally is un RP and against Zoner rep, than I think you need to speak to SA as well, who are near-allied with KNF, whom the SA's main ally, SF, is at war with. BAF vs KNF, KNF vs SF. SA is allied to SF and near-allied to KNF, to the point of helping them out militarily, when rumors and news reports class the rep between Liberty and Kusari as a very fragile neutrality, with the possibility of Liberty joining BAF's side against KNF. Then SF is allied with the RM, whom are thinking of allying KNF against the BAF, and going to war with Liberty.. If anyone has a screwed up PC to NPC reputation status its the four house factions. I'm not saying AW's rep is perfect, but we do stick pretty close to what Zoners stick to.
*Takes breath*
EDIT: Hyper.. Now you say AW should be allied to GMG, and friendly to Outcasts.. I'm allied to HF, and you think I shouldn't be.. Now who are the Lane Hackers allied to? OUTCASTS! So your saying I should be friendly to Outcasts, but not friendly with their allies..
Furthermore, this is a bit flamage coming up.. SF is allied with RM who are close to joining the KNF against BAF. That would mean RM would be against the SF. SF is also allied to SA, okay thats fine. Then SA goes and becomes almost allied to KNF, being friendly with their ally's enemy.. seems bit hypocritical to say AW should be allied only to its host's allies, when you faction is allied to a faction thats almost the enemy of your host faction.
We don't police the system. The only thing we do is protect the innocents of Theta as you said you believe we should.
Also, demand wasn't used in the way your thinking. I was using demand to signify, what we expect to end the war. Diplomacy is handled in a give/take fashion. Give/Take is also Offers/Demands. You offer something to the other person, then you say what your demands are, what you want in return for your offers. We would give an offer and a demand. For example, in the just-finished war, we offered peace, and we demanded for that peace that you stay out of the SA/SF war and leave HF alone.
Thats what I was meaning by demand, not saying; "Do this or you die."
Also, on 'closely affiliated' I would mean; (In RP-like terms)
The AW are the defenders of Zoners, Theta/Omicron-74, and the peace of Theta/Omicron-74. Anyone who attacks the Zoners would be attacked by us. Anyone who attacks Theta/Omicron-74 would be attacked by us. Anyone who disrupts the peace, such as pirating traders or attacking innocent people in Theta/Omicron-74, would be attacked by us and/or penalized.
Zoners in turn, allow AW the use of Zoner stations, and control of part of Freeport 9, and control of Omicron-74. We would have hanger bays given to our use, and certain parts of a station. Say theoretically, that would be 10-20% of the station. We would also be allowed to construct ships and repairs in Zoner shipyards (Newport in Omicron-74).
Then we would also treat Zoner's allies as our allies, friendlies as our friendlies, enemies as our enemies.
However, we would still be separate from Zoners. We do not control their actions, and they do not control our actions, except in our defense of Theta/Omicron 74. If a faction attacked Zoners, we would attack that faction as our part of the deal is to defend them. If AW went after a faction, the Zoners would not assist us in that, as that is an action done solely on our own, not involving the Zoners.
We defend their systems and stations, and in return we get sections of their bases to use.
![[Image: malsig_alt1.png]](http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o108/Shamus_FL/malsig_alt1.png)
![[Image: DFinal.png]](http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/Luciaden/DFinal.png)
![[Image: sighoodlumkb4.jpg]](http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g59/Fellow_Hoodlum/sighoodlumkb4.jpg)
![[Image: 2001775094275025807_rs.jpg]](http://aycu11.webshots.com/image/4250/2001775094275025807_rs.jpg)
![[Image: 771179322673kj2.png]](http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/859/771179322673kj2.png)