Will those 'flagships' be used at the frontline for combat? Or more as "mobile station" for strategical fallbacks during battles (for repairs, resupply).
What about giving them engines like the Barge has them currently?
So that they're heavily armored/gunned but not able to move fast.
' Wrote:Maintaining these ships would be -expensive-.
The only thing that is expensive in this game is time. Credits can easily be gathered. There's a thread somewhere on the forum in which people have claimed to own credits in excess of 10 to 20 billions.
First of all, you might want to expand this concept. It doesn't bring anything new to what anyone thinks of when brainstorming on 'Faction Flagships'. A one of a king big ship with big guns that does big explosions.
'huge maintenance costs to fly them' - Exactly how huge, what kind of costs. Fuel, maybe? Expendable ammunition? All this has been already thought of and presented in earlier drafts of this concept.
'the immense amount of effort means only factions/groups of factions can feasibly operate one' - Since the obvious limitations of the game limit any ship able to be flown by one player at a time, I have no idea what you're thinking of about 'operating one'. Huge costs in building one in POS' is closest I can think of. And this has already been brainstormed on as well. They're pretty logic things, obviously.
Trading factions having flagships doesn't lead me thinking of anything else but Custom Barges. Regardless of how one would balance such a ship, it would end up either too overpowered(regarding powertrading), not any bit more useful then a current Barge, or simply too demanding in comparison to the advantages it would bring, that would render it useless.
Usage in military factions brings the most obvious benefits, but with obvious drawbacks. First of all, balance drawbacks. The amount of agility you'd give to such a ship in order to keep it 'realistic'(the freelancer kind of realistic) would make it either: a) a big Valor on steroids, b) a big Green Brick of Doom on steroids, c) a big Lost Battlestar on steroids that takes 10 minutes to turn around. I'm saying there's no way to keep such a ship balanced, in a way that would make flying it enjoyable.
So the only reason someone would want one would be the visual appeal of such a ship, or the roleplay one. And that can already be accomplished by simply increasing the reputation of a ship ingame. Take the Hellfire Ven'Gyr. The sheer reputation of the ship allowed us to use it on at least one accountable occasion by simply roleplaying in local comms the arrival of the ship in the next few minutes. At least two dreadnoughts retreated. And this all happened in the past few months, while the Ven'Gyr was, and still is, nerfed.
Link flagships to player bases, and add the probability for equipment being lost if the ship is destroyed. If equipment for said ship is produced via player base supplies. And if the ship is not destroyed, but simply damaged, the repair costs would be high.
You'd imagine that to make a faction flagship, in theory you'd need the following things...
A maxed out POS.
then you manufacture the various 'components' of the flagship, with their own costs. (actual amounts can be decided)
I have no idea what Trading factions would want. Barges would be probably the thing, as you've said.
You're assuming that faction flagships need to be big. They need not be. Hypothetically, the LN flagship could just simply be a Liberty Dreadnought with similar handling, but souped up powercore and hard hitting turrets.
These ships are not to be balanced in the traditional sense of the word. Considering the costs you need to make and fly one, You'd imagine they can really dish out damage against opposing capital ships. LN flagship could maybe take on 3 turtles and win. Or so.
Posts: 6,320
Threads: 330
Joined: Aug 2007
Staff roles: Story Dev Economy Dev
' Wrote:Now then, I've been a faction leader for a long time. Longer than a lot of factions have even existed here. Due to the faction in question being Bowex, I've never really had much power to abuse or controversy to deal with - trade factions are neat like that. However, it has given me an insight into the real role of faction leaders that few people seem to appreciate.
Our job isn't to marshal indies, fill out tomes on the forum or instigate little intrigues against other players which we feel might give our group a little more 'power'. No. A faction leader's real job is to ensure that all their members are having fun, even if it's at the expense of their own. That means coming up with events, subsidising bonuses out of your own cash flow or investing time in training or group sessions. Going above and beyond to make sure your friends and faction-mates are getting the most out of their membership.
Because of this, I can soundly say that flagships and things in a similar vein aren't going to help at all. I don't want incentives for myself and my trusted lieutenants / high command. We're in our current positions specifically because we already have an incentive to play and enjoy doing it. Bonuses for factions shouldn't target the top tier. They should be aimed at the members themselves, from the bottom to the top.
So using trade factions as an example - a special ship for me (maybe some kind of war-freighter gizmo) would be neat but silly. It only rewards one person of many, and the person who least needs it at that. A FLHook based plugin that gave ships with your tag a cargo hold bonus or a commodity sell price buff would be excellent though. This targets the entire faction's playerbase instead of just the "elite", granting a real incentive to play.
Now then, this also touches on one of Ben's points, of all types of factions being treated as one. Yes, factions should all be treated the same so far as activity goes. It's a raw minimum for a reason - if you can't sustain that, you shouldn't be hogging a spot. Despite this, there are massive variations between groups - trade and PvP based groups specifically - which means certain rights or perks simply aren't applicable and don't make sense.
I could write a list of faction rights which were intended for PvP based groups and have no practical application for less military minded factions. Something to replace these rights would be splendid. Perhaps draw up two lists; combative rights and non-combative rights, and allow each faction to pick which one they wished to abide by, alongside their justifications for their decision.
EDIT: For the tl;dr: Factions consist of groups of amazing people, and if there is going to be a reward or incentive given to the group, it should affect all the members and not just the person who's sat in the swivelling leather chair at the top of the pile. I know for a fact that Bowex has an absolutely brilliant team, and if I received a 'flagship' and they went without, I'd be doing the them and their investments in the faction a massive disservice.
Can't be asked to cut out the relevant bits. Flagships really won't help factions as a whole.
' Wrote:Can't be asked to cut out the relevant bits. Flagships really won't help factions as a whole.
Won't they? Flagships would be a faction effort, like player stations. We've all seen how useful and effective they have been at spurring factions on. Not only that, it also pokes member of the opposing factions. They need to mount a really big, group effort to handle one.
' Wrote:Link flagships to player bases, and add the probability for equipment being lost if the ship is destroyed. If equipment for said ship is produced via player base supplies. And if the ship is not destroyed, but simply damaged, the repair costs would be high.
You'd imagine that to make a faction flagship, in theory you'd need the following things...
A maxed out POS.
then you manufacture the various 'components' of the flagship, with their own costs. (actual amounts can be decided)
I have no idea what Trading factions would want. Barges would be probably the thing, as you've said.
You're assuming that faction flagships need to be big. They need not be. Hypothetically, the LN flagship could just simply be a Liberty Dreadnought with similar handling, but souped up powercore and hard hitting turrets.
These ships are not to be balanced in the traditional sense of the word. Considering the costs you need to make and fly one, You'd imagine they can really dish out damage against opposing capital ships. LN flagship could maybe take on 3 turtles and win. Or so.
Going by what you've said, what stops trading factions like FTU or Gotti.Inc to make such a thing. 'Gotti.Inc' claimed to own 19.7 bil in credits. Coupled with the manpower, maxing out a POS and building a flagship wouldn't really be such a big issue.
The hypothetical scenario of a buffed LN Dreadnought might work in theory, but in the field, as soon as such a ship would appear, the opposition would bring from twice as many forces to three times as many as they would, just to score a kill on the flagship.
Therefore, using the flagship in combat turns it into a money sinkhole, while not using it makes building it in the first place, a stupid thing to do.
Posts: 6,320
Threads: 330
Joined: Aug 2007
Staff roles: Story Dev Economy Dev
' Wrote:Won't they? Flagships would be a faction effort, like player stations. We've all seen how useful and effective they have been at spurring factions on. Not only that, it also pokes member of the opposing factions. They need to mount a really big, group effort to handle one.
Benefits should be for the entire faction, not just the HC. See quote for an expanded explanation. Also, Barges are horrible abborations which bases make entirely redundant. Offering them to trade factions sounds more like a punishment to me.
' Wrote:Going by what you've said, what stops trading factions like FTU or Gotti.Inc to make such a thing. 'Gotti.Inc' claimed to own 19.7 bil in credits. Coupled with the manpower, maxing out a POS and building a flagship wouldn't really be such a big issue.
The hypothetical scenario of a buffed LN Dreadnought might work in theory, but in the field, as soon as such a ship would appear, the opposition would bring from twice as many forces to three times as many as they would, just to score a kill on the flagship.
Therefore, using the flagship in combat turns it into a money sinkhole, while not using it makes building it in the first place, a stupid thing to do.
If flagships are free-access to build, then that will happen, to be honest. Although to be frank, how many groups like this exist anyways?
And smart usage of flagships is up to the factions themselves. One would imagine them having a cloak and/or jump drive, to mark a retreat.
Quote:Benefits should be for the entire faction, not just the HC. See quote for an expanded explanation. Also, Barges are horrible abborations which bases make entirely redundant. Offering them to trade factions sounds more like a punishment to me.
I don't see any feasible way to reward entire factions, honestly.
I think it can be done to make the whole ship built by players. It can be a new type of station. First you need a battleship and a..maybe a cau VI on it or VII, but if you really wanna make it expensive then lets play in big cash so here's the recepi i think about:
capship+cau8 (no guns on it)
rest of the cargo is filled with the required materials
/build flagship command
The player gets kicked and when he logs back he's in a starflea and the base appears where it was wanted to be. It'll take a really -HUGE- amount of resources. When the base is complete The faction can ask the admins to "release the ship from the drydock". So they remove the base and replace the starflea with the new buffed ship.
It can add some fun to the house wars, and some real job to the so called covert units and special agents. And maybe with this, empty unused systems can get a new view point.
/edit: I see a few of us here care about the logical and smart usage of this ship and things like that, well i think we don't always need logic. A little chaos can be fun.
' Wrote:If flagships are free-access to build, then that will happen, to be honest. Although to be frank, how many groups like this exist anyways?
And smart usage of flagships is up to the factions themselves. One would imagine them having a cloak and/or jump drive, to mark a retreat.
Aforementioned FTU, Gotti, IND, USI, basically any trading faction that gathers enough manpower. Which is quite easy to find. FTU recruits players straight from Penny. And it's not how many exist that one should be concerned with, is how many more would be created for the sole purpose of creating a flagship. Coupled with the fact that most powertraders go for a Cau8 Anti Cap Battleship as soon as they get the money for it, what's keeping anyone from imagining CCCP-like factions taking on two, three factions at once.
'Smart usage of flagships' is offensive usage, rather than defensive. Ambushed by Flagship.
![[Image: Narcotic.gif]](http://sig.grumpybumpers.com/host/Narcotic.gif)
![[Image: redon.gif]](http://sig.grumpybumpers.com/host/redon.gif)
![[Image: f0D5b.png]](http://i.imgur.com/f0D5b.png)
![[Image: O2Zu5.png]](http://i.imgur.com/O2Zu5.png)
![[Image: IlS2I.png]](http://i.imgur.com/IlS2I.png)
![[Image: yNeaK.png]](http://i.imgur.com/yNeaK.png)
![[Image: 9zbjr.png]](http://i.imgur.com/9zbjr.png)
![[Image: D7RGg.png]](http://i.imgur.com/D7RGg.png)
