Nephthys is a fine ship. I'm ok with buffing Avenger so it matches the Nephthys. The nuances are best left to the balance team.
There is no need to nerf the Nephthys, especially considering it does not see widespread use in the hand of mercs and such, and is only to be used against the Nomads/Core, with Liberty as an additional enemy.
Both the Nomads and Core (Core with .86) have very fine ships now.
Reading this thread seriously gave me an eye tic due to the massive spam of preconceived ideas of certain individuals who hide behind the RP lore. Truly each post became more absurd than the previous and naturally when no one can come to an agreement they simply blame a person of being bias, yes of course, what other way to settle a problem but to accuse someone total of neglect towards the world around him.
Despite constantly drifting far from the original topic, this thread's purpose it to point out how far from all other very heavy fighters, who're supposed to play the ''tank'' role, is a particular case standing out from the group in almost every aspect. Agility, armor, number of weapons and power plant (Thank God, the size is acceptable).
As for now, quotes won't be used in order to avoid friction between opinions. So I'll simply sum up the impressions made so far whether this fighter is balanced or not.
1.The Order is meant to have the superior technological advantage in comparison to the rest of Sirius since they need everything to counter the dreaded Nomads and BHG.
I couldn't agree more, since I've personally fought Voidrunners who have no issues in keeping the favorable odds on their side just by doing circles and constantly raping the ''nomad torpedo'' key. A light fighter which is the only one that can survive a direct razor or nuke, granted you're lucky enough to land hits in the first place. However, as already stated, this is the only piece of ''hardware'' the nomads have at their disposal which has the capacity to stand on its own and, for those who aren't already aware, the nasty turbo squid got nerfed. As in, it no longer turns faster than the liberator, which is no small deal at all.
Yes, it is still a pain in the *** to actually kill it, but I can't blame them for creating such a ship when every time they visit a system, Mr. X arrives and writes '' Nomads near (add whatever place you want)'' and a whole damn sea of love pours with the sole purpose to enjoy the perfectly normal gank. (Sadly, there's no cure for idiocy)
Bounty Hunters are next on the Order's favorite list. Surprisingly enough, the Manta VHF received a boost to its agility. Now I do say ''surprisingly'' because a large part of the community is under the impression Mantas were killing machines back in 4.85. Unless that definition stands for having a huge profile, less armor and slower turning speed than a Guardian then I can only feel sorry for those individuals who put their trust in the almighty buckshots while charging ahead and strafing. Yeah, that barely manages to cut in against people who use the similar strategy. So in short, in 4.85 Manta was nowhere near the Nephthys.
With the recent buff however it finally became a force to be reckoned with, and doesn't have to suffer under the deliberate handicap regarding its other aspects. Hell, some people dare to call it the new Wraith version for all BHG. (in terms of speed, whereas the profile, battery and armor still remain behind the Guardian) Indeed, I'll compare it with Guardian since that ship is believed to be the borderline between average and terrible.
Seems like the Order really do face mighty opponents and the statement '' we need Nephthys to counter them all '' is well justified.
Unless'¦ they're just the special ones in Disco who're only affected by this balancing term. Let's see if the same applies for other factions shall we?
First of all, the Unioners and their Arbeiter. (Crossbreed between an Eagle and a Wraith)
Now I'm no tech expert but when you mix two crafts which are legendary for their agility, normally you'd expect something'¦ similar in terms of speed?
Here're the wonderful results, Arbeiter is not only way slower than both Eagle and Wraith, but also has a bigger profile than the Guardian, less nanobots and oh maybe one bonus which would be the 200 extra armor over the Guardian's. Not to mention their blaster cannons who'd make everyone cry with their stunning dps 2k and slow projectile speed.
Now these folks have this to counter umm the Wraith ^^. A ship which stands for the anti-everything duty. I truly sympathize to the Unioners with their challenging task to counter a Wraith in a ship which is already worse than the Guardian (Thank God for the new Vengeance cannons which somewhat even the odds). Naturally the Unioners have been deliberately called a ''Sabre whore faction'' using codename guns and flashpoints against Wraiths.
Yes, it is completely unacceptable when people have a chance to fight back. But as it stands, the Unioners have no right in receiving adequate tech against the impossible PvP demands. That won't concern the Order now would it? After all they are special.
The same could be said about the Templar facing a Chimaera. I recall a discussion inclining people to believe the Kusari tech is ridiculously overpowered in comparison to bretonian. Yeah'¦ having a slightly faster ship with less armor, less regens and by far slower weapons is considered overpowered by some standards. Kusari lawful players also encounter the Blood Dragon Katana, but in that particular case the odds are fairly balanced since the Katana sacrifices tenacity for a slightly better speed advantage.
To be honest, facing daito Katanas and Splitter Templars is a terrifying thought in a Chimaera. (At least the new sunfrenzy offers you a chance to bite back)
As for the nomads, well to be honest they have the tendency of traveling all over Sirius and not just sticking in the Omicrons to play cat and mouse with Order ships. Does a Titan getting butthurt by voidrunners seem balanced to you? Not as fair as it is to the rest of Sirius, but do you hear them hiding behind the explanation ''We fight nomads, must have ultimate tech''? RP lore says the Order are unique, however that causes serious issues when it comes to PvP. I daresay their uniqueness borders with arrogance compared to everyone else.
[color=#FF0000]
2.Buffing certain ships makes others utterly redundant.
True and true, and instead of pointing out libertonian, bretonian, kusarian, rheinish or any other tech by choice, why don't you take a good long look at your Nephthys which fills the Bastet's role perfectly and even better than expected.
Bastet has 6 slots for tenth class weapons. Let's mount six Excaliburs: This sums up to 8340 damage per shot.
Now do the same with the Nephthys. Four Excaliburs and three Magmahammers: 5560 + 3000= 8560 per shot.
Oh well, math says the tank delivers a heavier punch than the ship which is precisely made for shotgun strikes. Also the turning speed barely makes a difference to compensate the lack of armor and battery on the Bastet's side.
3.A better pilot killed you in an Avenger, Neo. Quit whining about it.
Since it'd be arrogant to call myself a good pilot, much less better than Connor, I'll explain in detail what happened in that duel. Yeah, I was behind the Avenger controls.
At first I thought that the normal semi-slides should be sufficient to keep up to another fighter of the same heavy category. Little did I know'¦
The agility advantage was nothing compared to the obscene amount of damage he delivered in exactly a second'¦ a second and a half, tops. That alone cost me about 20%-30% of my armor if we ignore the fact that his three tizonas ate my full shield in one second. Luckily for me, desperation nukes are still a viable option given that cruise disruptors epically fail at tracking targets. Chances are you'll just nail yourself by trying to counter them with one disruptor. That was my only chance in clawing to victory since he outclassed me in every fighter aspect. He finally ran into one nuke out of the other fifty I used and that sealed the deal, shooting him down after that was a matter of mindbending patience.
One nuke, turned the tide, but what would've happened if we were to use regens? I throw away all my nukes for the cost of a single hit and he'd have 60-65 regens left out of 78. Honestly, before smack talking someone make sure you can fill their shoes, because judging by most of the responses here, very few have tried another ''tank'' VHF against the Nephthys.
4.Buffing the LN ships would result in the hostile orientated factions demanding the same for their tech.
I sincerely hope that, the person who suggested to additionally buff the Werewolf, is being sarcastic. They may have a point though, after all, Werewolves are still getting shot down which is completely unacceptable, add a GB shield to solve that issue since the freighter class 6 shield or the 140 regens aren't enough.
But hey, it's not that Liberty faces opponents with tech astronomically ahead of its own.
Merely'¦Werewolf, Bayonet, Wraith, Nephthys (Don't you just love battleship Atum in Alaska.)
Bottom line: I refrain from saying whether buffing Liberty tech is good or not, it may seem fair in the eyes of some people, whereas others will find it insulting.
Still this thread is solely about the Nephthys and so far I'm not convinced neither the nomad or BHG problem is good enough anymore. All factions have issues against the opposing side, but very few have the right to call themselves ''technologically superior'' based on their origin. Every RP story is plausible, it can be supported by both preposterous and solid arguments, but don't dare involve the precious lore of yours to justify the utterly imbalanced PvP system. This goes for every faction: Human, Synthetic or Alien.
No one is obliged to suffer flying a worse ship just because they're good and should stay in par with those who lack the time, means or are just lazy to hone their own skills.
Having the best VHF in the game which fares in agility nearly as good as the Guardian, but beats every other fighter in terms of tenacity and brute strength is ridiculous, don't you think?
Now for my own opinion: Either nerf the Nephthys so it'll be similar to Templer, Avenger or Titan (mainly for the agility, armor seems to much as well). Or buff the rest of the tank very heavy fighters so they won't look like harmless toys compared to the Nephthys. Nobody likes having their main dish removed from the table, but for once think what's it like on the other side and whether the person next to you is enjoying their gaming experience. Because I sincerely doubt anyone would under such circumstances.
I'm fine with buffing the rest of them but it'll result in the Avenger replacing the Guardian much like the Nephthys did to the Bastet. So it's a tricky and very delicate matter unless their agility remains sluggish. Overall it'd be simply easier to nerf the Nephthys turning stats.
' Wrote:Out of these 3 ships Guardian is fastest in both turn intitiation and dodging.
Avenger rather fast in turn initiation, but has slower max turning speed and is not so good in dodging. Nephthys doesn't start to turn so fast, but dodges good.
Well that is the main Problem actually.
' Wrote:I'd actually go so far as to say that I found the Nephthys to have the best response of the three, at least it felt quite nippy when flying it*.
Indeed that, that was the OP 4.85 Sabre too and better then eagle. Now Eagle /Wraith/ are the best VHFs around.
In practice the better dodging and acceleration of the ship make up for the slower turning. 4.85 Sabre turned a way to slow then Eagle for example but it was superior.
For example Molly Greyhound have cool turning but it fails in everything else so it is suitable only for some very good pilots that could use the turning as advantage.
Good acceleration and dodging/strafing abilities are useful for everyone- it doesn't matter if the pilot is Ace or newiebie- they are 100% useful for both kind of pilots.
If you combine 15k core with 7 guns and good dodging then you got nice OP ship, same with the SCRA VHF- it is HF sized and with LF agility but have the same offensive abilities as the Guardian- but with better faction guns.
There was case in Theta 2 weeks ago where 10 Titans were shooting 1 SCRA VHF
among them were 3-4 of the Disco good pilots, SCRA pilot was also good pilot, titans were not able to take down his shield-LF with VHF shield- mega OP ship- go figure....
Avenger is just bad. Greyhound is just bad. Arbeiter is just bad. v3 Sabre is just bad. Guardian is mediocre.
What Petko and McNeo said is true.
Order playerbase in this topic- well you could not be more hypocrite then that I bet.
If Jeremy and etc cannot fly ships does not means that all cannot k? It does not mean that some factions with bad in PvP pilots in general should receive OP ships to compensate.
However your "won" the forum spam/RP mehness point. You are right that you need OP ships to fight nomads, same as SCRA needs OP ships to fight the rest of Sirius because they got more numbers...:lol:
Go hide somewhere k?
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
' Wrote:Okay, so, I don't have 3dsmax to hand, which would really help me make this case.
I also primarily fly [LN] ships, which makes this post probably very bias. However, before you ask, I have flown the Nephthys, Guardian, Titan and Avenger recently in combat.
I've noticed a discrepancy in the Nephthys when compared to the Guardian and the Avenger, namely its turn stats according to FLstat. Here's all the relevant stuff:
Guardian
11000 hitpoints
68 b/b
1.1750 max angular speed (radians/sec)
0.4835 time to 90% max angular (seconds)
11400/1160 powerplant
5 guns/1 turret forwards
Avenger
13200 hitpoints
72 b/b
1.1220 max angular speed (radians/sec)
0.4717 time to 90% max angular (seconds)
15000/1340 powerplant
5 guns/1 turret forwards
Nephthys
14500 hitpoints
78 b/b
1.1707 max angular speed (radians/sec)
0.4717 time to 90% max angular (seconds)
15000/1340 powerplant
6 guns/1 turret forwards
Titan
13500 hitpoints
73 b/b
1.1220 max angular speed (radians/sec)
0.4717 time to 90% max angular (seconds)
15000/1340 powerplant
6 guns forwards
Now, to be honest, I can't see that being justifiable, given that it's so much better than the Avenger while having a similar profile. A profile which the Executioner shares, which Ursus decided to make a thread about somewhere else here. In fact, it keeps up with the Guardian as well, despite having far more hull, regen capacity, power and an extra weapon pointing forwards.
I put the Titan in as well, as it's an example of a fighter that is pretty hard to hit compared to the big ones with the wide wings, if I'm being honest. Sure, it pays for that by being a munitions magnet, but oh well. Personally, I'm not seeing the justification for the Avenger being as poor as it is when put besides the Nephthys, especially without the shape "advantage" of the Titan.
But there we go. I heard that someone was bleeting that the Avenger was overpowered, and I invite those people to spend some time in the Nephthys.
' Wrote:
Reading this thread seriously gave me an eye tic due to the massive spam of preconceived ideas of certain individuals who hide behind the RP lore. Truly each post became more absurd than the previous and naturally when no one can come to an agreement they simply blame a person of being bias, yes of course, what other way to settle a problem but to accuse someone total of neglect towards the world around him.
Despite constantly drifting far from the original topic, this thread's purpose it to point out how far from all other very heavy fighters, who're supposed to play the ''tank'' role, is a particular case standing out from the group in almost every aspect. Agility, armor, number of weapons and power plant (Thank God, the size is acceptable).
As for now, quotes won't be used in order to avoid friction between opinions. So I'll simply sum up the impressions made so far whether this fighter is balanced or not.
1.The Order is meant to have the superior technological advantage in comparison to the rest of Sirius since they need everything to counter the dreaded Nomads and BHG.
I couldn't agree more, since I've personally fought Voidrunners who have no issues in keeping the favorable odds on their side just by doing circles and constantly raping the ''nomad torpedo'' key. A light fighter which is the only one that can survive a direct razor or nuke, granted you're lucky enough to land hits in the first place. However, as already stated, this is the only piece of ''hardware'' the nomads have at their disposal which has the capacity to stand on its own and, for those who aren't already aware, the nasty turbo squid got nerfed. As in, it no longer turns faster than the liberator, which is no small deal at all.
Yes, it is still a pain in the *** to actually kill it, but I can't blame them for creating such a ship when every time they visit a system, Mr. X arrives and writes '' Nomads near (add whatever place you want)'' and a whole damn sea of love pours with the sole purpose to enjoy the perfectly normal gank. (Sadly, there's no cure for idiocy)
Bounty Hunters are next on the Order's favorite list. Surprisingly enough, the Manta VHF received a boost to its agility. Now I do say ''surprisingly'' because a large part of the community is under the impression Mantas were killing machines back in 4.85. Unless that definition stands for having a huge profile, less armor and slower turning speed than a Guardian then I can only feel sorry for those individuals who put their trust in the almighty buckshots while charging ahead and strafing. Yeah, that barely manages to cut in against people who use the similar strategy. So in short, in 4.85 Manta was nowhere near the Nephthys.
With the recent buff however it finally became a force to be reckoned with, and doesn't have to suffer under the deliberate handicap regarding its other aspects. Hell, some people dare to call it the new Wraith version for all BHG. (in terms of speed, whereas the profile, battery and armor still remain behind the Guardian) Indeed, I'll compare it with Guardian since that ship is believed to be the borderline between average and terrible.
Seems like the Order really do face mighty opponents and the statement '' we need Nephthys to counter them all '' is well justified.
Unless'¦ they're just the special ones in Disco who're only affected by this balancing term. Let's see if the same applies for other factions shall we?
First of all, the Unioners and their Arbeiter. (Crossbreed between an Eagle and a Wraith)
Now I'm no tech expert but when you mix two crafts which are legendary for their agility, normally you'd expect something'¦ similar in terms of speed?
Here're the wonderful results, Arbeiter is not only way slower than both Eagle and Wraith, but also has a bigger profile than the Guardian, less nanobots and oh maybe one bonus which would be the 200 extra armor over the Guardian's. Not to mention their blaster cannons who'd make everyone cry with their stunning dps 2k and slow projectile speed.
Now these folks have this to counter umm the Wraith ^^. A ship which stands for the anti-everything duty. I truly sympathize to the Unioners with their challenging task to counter a Wraith in a ship which is already worse than the Guardian (Thank God for the new Vengeance cannons which somewhat even the odds). Naturally the Unioners have been deliberately called a ''Sabre whore faction'' using codename guns and flashpoints against Wraiths.
Yes, it is completely unacceptable when people have a chance to fight back. But as it stands, the Unioners have no right in receiving adequate tech against the impossible PvP demands. That won't concern the Order now would it? After all they are special.
The same could be said about the Templar facing a Chimaera. I recall a discussion inclining people to believe the Kusari tech is ridiculously overpowered in comparison to bretonian. Yeah'¦ having a slightly faster ship with less armor, less regens and by far slower weapons is considered overpowered by some standards. Kusari lawful players also encounter the Blood Dragon Katana, but in that particular case the odds are fairly balanced since the Katana sacrifices tenacity for a slightly better speed advantage.
To be honest, facing daito Katanas and Splitter Templars is a terrifying thought in a Chimaera. (At least the new sunfrenzy offers you a chance to bite back)
As for the nomads, well to be honest they have the tendency of traveling all over Sirius and not just sticking in the Omicrons to play cat and mouse with Order ships. Does a Titan getting butthurt by voidrunners seem balanced to you? Not as fair as it is to the rest of Sirius, but do you hear them hiding behind the explanation ''We fight nomads, must have ultimate tech''? RP lore says the Order are unique, however that causes serious issues when it comes to PvP. I daresay their uniqueness borders with arrogance compared to everyone else.
[color=#FF0000]
2.Buffing certain ships makes others utterly redundant.
True and true, and instead of pointing out libertonian, bretonian, kusarian, rheinish or any other tech by choice, why don't you take a good long look at your Nephthys which fills the Bastet's role perfectly and even better than expected.
Bastet has 6 slots for tenth class weapons. Let's mount six Excaliburs: This sums up to 8340 damage per shot.
Now do the same with the Nephthys. Four Excaliburs and three Magmahammers: 5560 + 3000= 8560 per shot.
Oh well, math says the tank delivers a heavier punch than the ship which is precisely made for shotgun strikes. Also the turning speed barely makes a difference to compensate the lack of armor and battery on the Bastet's side.
3.A better pilot killed you in an Avenger, Neo. Quit whining about it.
Since it'd be arrogant to call myself a good pilot, much less better than Connor, I'll explain in detail what happened in that duel. Yeah, I was behind the Avenger controls.
At first I thought that the normal semi-slides should be sufficient to keep up to another fighter of the same heavy category. Little did I know'¦
The agility advantage was nothing compared to the obscene amount of damage he delivered in exactly a second'¦ a second and a half, tops. That alone cost me about 20%-30% of my armor if we ignore the fact that his three tizonas ate my full shield in one second. Luckily for me, desperation nukes are still a viable option given that cruise disruptors epically fail at tracking targets. Chances are you'll just nail yourself by trying to counter them with one disruptor. That was my only chance in clawing to victory since he outclassed me in every fighter aspect. He finally ran into one nuke out of the other fifty I used and that sealed the deal, shooting him down after that was a matter of mindbending patience.
One nuke, turned the tide, but what would've happened if we were to use regens? I throw away all my nukes for the cost of a single hit and he'd have 60-65 regens left out of 78. Honestly, before smack talking someone make sure you can fill their shoes, because judging by most of the responses here, very few have tried another ''tank'' VHF against the Nephthys.
4.Buffing the LN ships would result in the hostile orientated factions demanding the same for their tech.
I sincerely hope that, the person who suggested to additionally buff the Werewolf, is being sarcastic. They may have a point though, after all, Werewolves are still getting shot down which is completely unacceptable, add a GB shield to solve that issue since the freighter class 6 shield or the 140 regens aren't enough.
But hey, it's not that Liberty faces opponents with tech astronomically ahead of its own.
Merely'¦Werewolf, Bayonet, Wraith, Nephthys (Don't you just love battleship Atum in Alaska.)
Bottom line: I refrain from saying whether buffing Liberty tech is good or not, it may seem fair in the eyes of some people, whereas others will find it insulting.
Still this thread is solely about the Nephthys and so far I'm not convinced neither the nomad or BHG problem is good enough anymore. All factions have issues against the opposing side, but very few have the right to call themselves ''technologically superior'' based on their origin. Every RP story is plausible, it can be supported by both preposterous and solid arguments, but don't dare involve the precious lore of yours to justify the utterly imbalanced PvP system. This goes for every faction: Human, Synthetic or Alien.
No one is obliged to suffer flying a worse ship just because they're good and should stay in par with those who lack the time, means or are just lazy to hone their own skills.
Having the best VHF in the game which fares in agility nearly as good as the Guardian, but beats every other fighter in terms of tenacity and brute strength is ridiculous, don't you think?
Now for my own opinion: Either nerf the Nephthys so it'll be similar to Templer, Avenger or Titan (mainly for the agility, armor seems to much as well). Or buff the rest of the tank very heavy fighters so they won't look like harmless toys compared to the Nephthys. Nobody likes having their main dish removed from the table, but for once think what's it like on the other side and whether the person next to you is enjoying their gaming experience. Because I sincerely doubt anyone would under such circumstances.
' Wrote:
I'm fine with buffing the rest of them but it'll result in the Avenger replacing the Guardian much like the Nephthys did to the Bastet. So it's a tricky and very delicate matter unless their agility remains sluggish. Overall it'd be simply easier to nerf the Nephthys turning stats.
Right. Firstly read Connor's first post. It's basically a comparision between the Avenger and other stock 'heavy' VHFs like Nephthys, Titan etc. I believe his point was to rather prove that the Avenger was weak compared to other VHFs of that variety, rather than proving the Nephthys is overpowered.
I've flown an Avenger and know that it's not brilliant. I'll support a buff for it.
Petko's point comparing the Unioner situation with the Order one is in poor taste really. The Order does not balance the ships. The balance team does. The Unioners are welcome to appeal to the balance team to fix their glaring problem, as is any faction.
I'm surprised, really. Your reaction to a ship which performs well against it's enemies is to compare it to ships who don't and then call for a nerf? Isn't that reverse logic?
Now I'll go to the point about Nomads combating everyone in Sirius, and thus everyone requiring OP tech. I'll be ignoring all RP reasons (funny that, on a RP server) and just look at it objectively.
Ships are balanced against their primary enemies, as has been stated on multiple occasions. You have admitted that the Order does not have a glaring advantage against it's primary enemies. Liberty is not the Order's primary enemy, lore wise. As far as Atum goes, I'd strongly consider asking the dev team to move it to someplace in Minor instead, and then negotiate a RP armistice.
I'm well aware of the Wraith vs Guardian debacle. Again, it's something for the respective factions to take up with the balance team, and has nothing to do with any Order representatives.
If members of factions that are the Order's primary enemies (the core and the Nomads) come in and say that Order tech is mindbendingly better than theirs, then it is legitimate grounds for a nerf. As it stands, I see no need for one.
Fix the Avenger's stats so that it's effective against ships of the like of the Wraith, the Warewolf and the Prosecutor, and be done with it.
' Wrote:Fix the Avenger's stats so that it's effective against ships of the like of the Wraith, the Warewolf and the Prosecutor, and be done with it.
Quote:Extended armor and increased power output make this ship one of the only Liberty fighter capable of surviving in the Edge Worlds harsh environment.
Means Omicrons. At the risk of being accused of bashing the faction - what the LSF actually does ingame is an entirely different matter unfortunately. And, dare I say, a point of conflict as to what should it be balanced against. On the flip side, just because the Order doesn't consider LSF a priority, that doesn't mean that the reverse is true.
' Wrote:Means Omicrons. At the risk of being accused of bashing the faction - what the LSF actually does ingame is an entirely different matter unfortunately. And, dare I say, a point of conflict as to what should it be balanced against. On the flip side, just because the Order doesn't consider LSF a priority, that doesn't mean that the reverse is true.
![[Image: E9d8RnV.jpg?1]](http://i.imgur.com/E9d8RnV.jpg?1)
![[Image: jeremy10.png]](http://i40.servimg.com/u/f40/16/80/35/65/jeremy10.png)
