What are people talking about when they say this rule change has caused factions to shut down their tech licensing? Doesn't the new rule say tech can still be revoked as long as it is stated in the contract?
If so why would this cause factions to not give out any tech, if all they have to do is say "No using it against us" or "Can be revoked at any time" in the contract?
Because this has been said for every Corsair tech request, and was assumed to be in place for the Reaver one too. At the time, there was no requirement to have such conditions everywhere you were making a tech deal. In fact, the deal with the Reavers was done in a separate thread just to keep things neat, as it was much longer than the others and would've cluttered the original thread.
Plus, Corsairs can't use the conditions that have always been in their tech request thread like the rules say, otherwise the admins will strip them of their official status. If an admin wants to directly contest this assertion, be my guest; I'd love a bit of clarity.
' Wrote:If Elders would have known that such events would take place no-one could ever have sair guns.
Just fixed it a bit.
' Wrote:Apply your logic consistently also.
When I kill you on your Corsair, you should lose the ship because I just destroyed it. You want that?
I'd rather have that than you flying around with an unlimited armoury.
The thing is that Reavers are above the rules and the common scene in this community. Sadly this is the truth- neglected clear rule violations, this funny stunt with the guns and the sudden rule change after granting them, the moderator stunt in their faction proposal. May be the simple solution to all other factions is not to hire them at all.
At this point this discussion is pointless and it boost the ego of the Reavers and their admin friends.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
McNeo I dont understand, are you saying the Admins will make the sairs unofficial if they take guns away from people, even though the rules say they can? That seems... unlikely.
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' Wrote:T Sadly this is the truth- neglected clear rule violations, this funny stunt with the guns and the sudden rule change after granting them, the moderator stunt in their faction proposal.
Could anyone provide the dates of the weapons grants from the Corsairs and the date the new rules were put in place?
Use search button. Try with Corsair-Reaver weapons negotiations and then with the admin notices.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Well this is quite the thread. Ok, so I am the leader of a Corsair faction, and a member of the Reavers and an Admin. So I keep out of the discussion on the admin side, but as a player involved in all sides I am going to say my bit. Do not take this as the opinion of the admin team.
First off, I kinda think there is a big bit being made out of nothing. Conner (Mcneo) started to point out that way back in the day, the SCRA and the Corsairs were good buddies, when the relations went south, the SCRA made off with transports full of Corsair guns, enough to keep them going until 4.85 when they got their own guns if I am not mistaken. This was condoned by the admins. I know I never saw a rule that said "You can revoke tech grants" It was just assumed by alot of people, in fact, I don't recall one tech permission that was revoked with the approval of the admins. When the admins found that faction leaders were editing out people's permissions, the rule was clarified so it was clear that grants were not revokable. I think that was completely consistent with admin decisions up to that point.
Now to the specifics of the Reaver Sair deal. I am going to have to be very honest here, and there are probably going to be some people pissed at me for it. I see Sair leaders talking about how they were being generous and how they never would have given out the tech if they thought it couldn't be revoked. It makes me a bit disappointed. What makes me disappointed is that if that claim were true, you were not being very good players. Not bad characters, but not good players. The amount of actual game time that it took for the Reavers to complete the deal was immense. We (The Reavers) spent most of our ingame time over the course of a month working to get that tech. If it is true that you would not have given out the tech if not for the thought it could be removed, you should not have been asking so much of the Reavers to get the guns. That's not being a good player, asking people to spend so much of their leisure time on something, just to have it taken away. I would have 100% stood here and said that the Reavers should give up the guns, if it hadn't been sooooo hard to get them, if it hadn't taken soooo much work to get them. As has been said before, if the FA, or the Hogosha or any of the other factions that we got tech from, came to us oorp and asked us to give up the tech, we would. But the amount of work that went into the Corsair deal was soooo huge, that it's not right to ask they be given up. Until such time as the Corsairs are going to somehow offer to refund the time and effort that went into getting the guns, I don't think there is really any reason to complain about the Reaver's having them.
I also agree with Ashes, any faction that gives the Reavers tech at this point is stupid. We have made our bed, now we have to lay in it, but we get to keep our blanket.
Also as a Corsair faction leader, if I feel I want to give someone tech for some reason, I will. I will be careful about, but I will. That said, I can't imagine a good enough reason at this point. Although at one point I was a big supporter of the idea that the Corsairs should give out as many guns as possible. Much like the United States and the Soviet Union during the Cold War, one of the ways power is measured is by weapons exports, even today. The United States has given out weapons to all sorts of people over the years, many of them have in turn been used against the United States. The citizens and government of the United States are well aware of that...... they continue to give out weapons to people.
' Wrote:Could anyone provide the dates of the weapons grants from the Corsairs and the date the new rules were put in place?
The Corsairs gave the Reavers the tech looooong before the rule clarification.
' Wrote:But the amount of work that went into the Corsair deal was soooo huge, that it's not right to ask they be given up. Until such time as the Corsairs are going to somehow offer to refund the time and effort that went into getting the guns, I don't think there is really any reason to complain about the Reaver's having them.
Well, was it wise to put that much effort into someone who you're going to turn against afterwards? Nobody forced you to do that, tech chart is (almost) all white for the Merc. ID.
Quote:We (The Reavers) spent most of our ingame time over the course of a month working to get that tech.
Well, we've been waiting 3 months to get 1(!) Liberty Flak cannon for our HQ (hunting in Liberty during that time..)... So while you're an experienced, old and respected player, probably with enough friends, so it might be easier for you to get access to white cells, I'd say that spending most of your in-game time to work for that over month is not even much, by local standarts (well, I understand there's probably a huge difference in your eyes about official and unofficial factions, but still)... as we experienced on our own skin.
Although I admit, I don't know the exact amount of the effort you put into this.
Quote:I know I never saw a rule that said "You can revoke tech grants" It was just assumed by alot of people, in fact, I don't recall one tech permission that was revoked with the approval of the admins. When the admins found that faction leaders were editing out people's permissions, the rule was clarified so it was clear that grants were not revokable. I think that was completely consistent with admin decisions up to that point.
Well, if you want to say that it was always intended by admins that tech permission shouldn't be revoked.... I'm relatively new player, but I'd say in this case admins and community lived in different worlds.
P.S. But this thread isn't only about reavers mainly, ehm?
From an Admin perspective: Not a fan of cleaning up after faction Role Play decisions: As usual we're damned if we do and damned if we dont here so admin hat off.
Player hat on:
This whole thing shows a stunning lack of imagination. I dont know if other avenues have been pursued to deal with this problem but it seems a case of :Situation bad - get admins to fix. Ok so, sometimes that does happen but what about cleaning up the situation without running to the adjudicators? What's to stop this being settled between the Corsair leadership and the Reavers? For example:
"From Corsair Leadership
Hi Reaver leadership - Now we're being shot by our own guns... well that's a bit cheeky! But well, we DID give them to you and you are slimy no-good double crossing mercenaries and all. Anyway, this fact has some Corsair players riled up both in Role play and out (apparently) and we'd like to come up with a way of addressing the situation.
So we're wondering if we cant find a Rp solution to this - this will of course require some good-will from all of us. We understand you have a large stock of these things from the time of the deal, fair enough. But would you consider this:
Every time a Reaver ship with Corsair weapons dies - you remove (however many were mounted on the ship) from your armory - The ship of Course will respawn with the weapons again, but your supply will be less. This could continue until of course the supply is empty (however long that takes) at which point when the last of the stock is exploded you guys agree not to use Corsair weapons again. (Hence the good will part)
This seems to have both the benefit of believable RP and avoids admin-talk. What do you think?
Oh - Btw... just for sport, the loss of an armory is a loss of stock? Yes? No? Cos we'll be looking for them!
We enjoy you shooting at us, your RP is fun, keep it up.
The Corsair leadership"
That is a hypothetical - But would fix the problem, and it avoids rules-lawyering, Admin intervention and a forum-load of "no u".
Admin Hat on: We would only like to get involved if it simply becomes stupid - however I believe in the ability of people here to look beyond their own noses and find a happy compromise - be it the example above or some other creative option which could be found in cooperation with other players, rather than adjudication of said players.
In lights of recent discovery that the deal between Corsairs and the Reavers was not so neat and public as I thought at first, I am going to state my opinion on the subject.
Reavers requested 15 tizona del cids, 14 del cid turrets, 5 salamancas, and few other guns.
A man in charge of issuing technology gave them a big task in order to get those guns.
They almost fulfilled it, but not completely, thus being allowed to use only del cids they requested.
POOF. Something happened behind the curtains. Some other Corsair elder (?) decided to issue an approval for unlimited amount of weapons.
Reavers are now allowed to use unlimited amount of Corsair weaponry.
Now, there are valid questions to be asked here. First of them would be logical. I hope that the Corsair elder who decided to amend the original deal to 'unlimited' is not part of the Reaver playerbase. So in order to realize who's to blame here, we should know who amended the deal in an oorp way? Can anyone answer this question?
If it was a whole Council of Corsair elders, which I highly doubt, Corsairs are to blame.
If it was any individual elder who is not a part of the Reavers - Corsairs are to blame.
If it was an elder which has ties to the Reavers - He and the Reavers are to blame.
Just to clarify, I don't think the last solution is possible. I doubt it'd go unnoticed.
McNeo,
Quote:Because this has been said for every Corsair tech request, and was assumed to be in place for the Reaver one too. At the time, there was no requirement to have such conditions everywhere you were making a tech deal. In fact, the deal with the Reavers was done in a separate thread just to keep things neat, as it was much longer than the others and would've cluttered the original thread.
This all falls to water. There are no conditions to respect if you issue equipment in an oorp way. And that's what Corsairs did.
In that thread which you all mention Reavers got only small amount of weaponry. They got the rest using other means.
At first I thought whole deal was done in an RP way, but now I can't support Corsairs anymore, because they did something stupid. Oorp deals are stupid, and they should be forbidden by the rules.
The big question here is: Who gave the oorp permission for unlimited amount of Corsair weaponry to the Reavers?
Second big question is: When was the oorp deal made, when was the original approval edited?
Lucendez Wrote:
It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.