[Infopage] Battlegroup Harmony - Information and Feedback

[Enkidu]

started hugging the freeport while dry and their friends stray shot hit the base.

I was chasing the untagged harmony ship who flew towards the base once I deshielded him. He turned in to engage the lead Unioner target, who used the NPC station as cover as the fight had been dragged out of the rocks by the untagged ship, who was the UN group target. I fired a CD to diffuse a nuke that had been dropped towards us, a la normal mine diffusing strategies. The splash damage of the CD caught a defence platform which triggered the base, blowing me up as I was at point blank range relative to the platform due to how the chase had panned out.

It wasn't hugging the base so much as the fight ended up dangerously close to the structure of the base.

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[Wesker]

Im merely explaining its position. I didnt personally put it there and the only feasible way it can ruin gameplay is if LN wants to chase us back to our dock. Its no different from LIS' positioning at Manhattan orbit. The only difference is the weapons dont ahoot anything on sight while LIS does.

The other difference is that LIS is well within the ability to be sieged by a number of factions. It's just that no one has the spine too, and the setting of New York is often much different, the lawfuls generally have a larger presence than their counterparts. The instances of lawfuls hugging LIS when fighting in comparison to harmony or anything friendly with it hugging bristol is a giant ratio that frowns upon harmony. The general atmosphere of the system in general is far far different, so no, pulling the "it's like LIS" card is completely void here.

As for Thyrs reply, with the recent announcement, it has to be inRP proven that the base is hostile to attack. As Liberty law regarding PoBs doesnt apply as lib law doesnt apply in the independent system, the ID line to engage hostile forces doesnt apply as the bade itself is neutral. The line that unlawfuls using the base isnt applicable as lib law doesnt cover the base. I fully well intended to defend it from sieges until i was told why it cant be.

The base itself is neutral to 90% pf disco and serves as a trading hub. Harmony faction members have been warned not to use the base as a crutch. This entire issue arose solely because a unioner started hugging the freeport while dry and their friends stray shot hit the base.

Since then Skorak has moved the guns inside the base and it cant shoot anything even if it tried.

A trading hub wearing a sepratist IFF that is neutral for that sole benefit? Is that seriously your best excuse? You understand everyone is here complaining about this because you're blatantly ignoring the fact that this is a loophole that guarantees the base's safety. Not once have I herd this was the reasoning for Bristol's IFF, more importantly, this spits on every other trading hub that otherwise would accept factions that are hostile too it. You get a neutral trade benefit as an outlaw group that "for that very reason" can also escape any possibility of it being sieged? This is like me tossing a Hessian trading hub in Omega-7, rephacking it neutral next to Fresitadt, and saying "it's a neutral hessian trading hub, since you can't prove it's hostile you cannot siege it."

News flash, everyone in harmony has been using this base and it's defenses as a crutch on the basis of losing pvp interactions. Quite a handy trading hub.

Absolutely beautiful. This is something to be saved.

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[Thyrzul]

As for Thyrs reply, with the recent announcement, it has to be inRP proven that the base is hostile to attack. As Liberty law regarding PoBs doesnt apply as lib law doesnt apply in the independent system, the ID line to engage hostile forces doesnt apply as the bade itself is neutral. The line that unlawfuls using the base isnt applicable as lib law doesnt cover the base. I fully well intended to defend it from sieges until i was told why it cant be.

Due to recent events, the PoB rules have been amended to prevent exploitation of a loophole. As of now, all PoB siege declarations must adhere to the rules of the declaring faction ID. If the ID does not have an engagement line, it may not declare sieges.

Added rule:

• Note
  - Siege declarations must adhere to the rules of the characters ID.

To clarify, this means that only if the declaring ID would be allowed to engage the base if it were a player, are they allowed to declare a siege on the base. Zoners can't siege bases, Freelancers need to be hired by a non-generic faction to siege a base, and the Independent pirate ID's are in the unfortunate area of being unable to siege bases at all while their ID and the situation is discussed.

The announcement does not contain a single word about having to prove anything inRP. It says players have to act and declare a siege against a base according to their ID as if they would have to act in the case of a player of the same ID/IFF. In other words, if LN can engage players with Liberty Separatists ID, they can also declare a siege on bases with Liberty Separatists IFF.

Unless you've meant an other "recent" announcement, although the second most recent one related to PoBs in general I could find was the decay removal due to the Russian IP range ban, from April.

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[DarkTails]

The LN Id may engage those in violation of Liberty Law. There's no physical way to prove it's in violation of Liberty Law when the area it's in is not covered by Liberty Law.

Edit: With no reason to prove the base is actually hostile, the Liberty Navy has no inRP grounds to act.
Edit 2: Since this is no longer about the faction's interaction feedback and about position of PoBs and where they stand while in independant systems, I suggest making a thread about it. The conversation about it in the feedback thread is over. I'm more than happy to respond to feedback about Harmony's interactions, but this has dragged on for far too long in the feedback.

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No one can out boop me, not even an Admin!
Boop. ~Spuddo
GRAVE REPERCUSSIONS ~Ramke
Get booped on, nerd. ~Durandal
I wanted to be a part of the party, hi Tails. ~Inferno
Pokes are superior boops. ~Naz

[Kaze]

Not really Tails, as you can see by today's posts is about how Harmony created and uses Bristol. So it actually does fall into faction feedback. Don't forget also about @Backo question back two pages ago too.

<3

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[08:11 PM] Dusty Lens said: Well in that case. NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKE & #SAVAGE & #STORIES

[Thyrzul]

The LN Id may engage those in violation of Liberty Law. There's no physical way to prove it's in violation of Liberty Law when the area it's in is not covered by Liberty Law.

Edit: With no reason to prove the base is actually hostile, the Liberty Navy has no inRP grounds to act.

The Liberty Laws begin with the following: (sorry, I couldn't quote faster from a locked thread)

According to this, while the Republic of Liberty does not have territorial claims to the independent systems, it does claim the right of authority and law enforcement. This means Bering is indeed covered by Liberty Laws.

Whether there is a reason to prove the base is hostile, or not, is up to the LN players to decide. If they think the base is more harmful than useful, and can explain how and why, they already have their inRP grounds to act.

For oorply proving the base is hostile, a screenshot of the base having Liberty Separatists IFF is still all what's required.



This discussion currently is about the interpretation and application of rules and laws, specifically in relation to Harmony's PoBs within Bering, and how you interpret and apply them in their defense reflects on you, on which I'm providing feedback. I hope you do not mind me using this thread for what the title suggests it to be.

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[DarkTails]

The entire reasoning for ooRPly proving it makes the entirething useless, as ooRP information should not and in most times will not be used without recourse in the inRP environment. From my experience within the Official Navy factions, Liberty jurisdiction, unless otherwise outlined by treaty, falls off 15k from the gate bordering Liberty. This conflicts with Liberty's claimed regions and the current rules stated area, which is in need of updating.

Liberty
Sovereign House Space: New York*, Alaska, California, Colorado, Ontario, Texas, Virginia.
House Controlled Space: Alberta, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania
House Outer Region: Cassini, Kansas

The fact of the matter remains, steps were taken to prevent a similar situation arising again after being discussed the next morning (earlier this morning) it happened. Harmony members have been warned not to use the base as a crutch, and honestly myself I would've have moved the gun platforms, the base has as much right to exist here as LIS does around Manhattan. The only difference is it's hard to siege because I don't set it to shoot everything that it would perceive as red.

@Backo Idk, I didn't put it here.


If you have an issue with how I personally interpret things, take to to my own feedback thread.

[McNeo]

I knew that writing that last line would come in handy for someone, somewhere, at some point in time. Even better to know that it's here.

Small wonder that part of the law has lasted for over a decade.

Traditionally, Liberty forces and associated primary fleets have always enforced their laws in the independent worlds, entirely at their own discretion. Though I've not been part of the [LN] for quite some time, that was the position when the laws were written and I see nothing on the independent or faction IDs that would change or prevent this.

Additionally, the Liberty Navy independent ID says the following:

The Liberty Navy are the military of Liberty. They maintain Liberty rule in systems claimed by Liberty and assist in law enforcement. They also patrol the systems bordering Liberty. Liberty is assisting Bretonia against Gallia.

And it's ZOI is the following:

Liberty, systems directly bordering Liberty, Leeds, Newcastle, Manchester, New London, Dundee.

And it has this line in the ID:

- Can attack ships which are in violation of Liberty laws or belong to a house or organisation considered hostile by Liberty within their Zone of Influence.

Furthermore, if I can direct you to Section II, Point I, of the Liberty laws, you will indeed find that Liberty laws cover base licences - and there is a list of permitted bases within Liberty. This base in Bering isn't on there.

So actually, as far as I can see, any Liberty lawful faction, or independent, already has all the justification they need to send you a siege notice, should they wish to do so. And that, as I said earlier in this post, is entirely at their own discretion.

[DarkTails]

The issue with that is, Bering is not Liberty space, it is independent space and doesn't require any listing on laws. Not treaties (Such as the Treaty of Curacao for Cortez) or other such consensus to allow such enforcements to authorize the usage of Liberty Law that deep into an independent system. It then revolves back into the issue of proving the base is hostile to Liberty which cannot be done inRP except by very specific circumstances.

The systems bordering Liberty does apply to ability to engage ships, however the issue is proving the base isn't truly neutral and just a Separatist base abusing neutrality. But with the lack of ability to enforce Liberty Law in the heart of the system, exceeding what I have been told while in the official Navy faction 5th, exceeds the 15k limit of enforcement around the gate, as the system is truly neutral space and not Liberty governed space. Hence why Freeport 2 can be a pirate base and not instantly boarded by the Navy and criminals arrested, turning the station over to the Zoners again.

[McNeo]

All your interpretations of what Liberty would, should or can do aside, since we can discuss those until the cows come home....

ID rules trump server rules last I checked ☑ .
The Liberty Separatists are enemies of the Liberty Navy ☑.
Bering is within the ZOI of the Liberty Navy ID ☑.

If the admin notice given, that bases are to be treated as ships are on an ID is to be believed, which it is ☑, then Liberty lawfuls already have every ability to attack this base.

If the base's presence is already in breach of Liberty law, then it can be siege noticed and attacked immediately after the notice period ends. If not, then all they have to do is prove, once only, that someone is using it against them. They don't even need to prove that its a separatist base, they just need to prove that it's a danger to them. Whatever flimsy loophole you're trying to hide behind, it's a couple of Spy/Inflitration RP posts (the same as all those Liberty Capital ships defecting or being stolen posts) away from crumbling, if the Liberty Lawful factions can be bothered to pursue the issue.

Which so far, they have not been bothered to do.