JihadJoe: Nope ... the OC ship just left after the Osiris was destroyed.
Rudo: Yup ... and I've seen them dock at Yanagi and other unlawful bases. I've even seen a Bounty Hunter ID on a Lane Hacker gunboat.
' Wrote:Well if you really want to get down to it junkers aren't really unlawful. I mean they are to a degree but no junker would go and attack a hunter outright and nether should the reverse happen. So really in rp terms a bounty hunter could say that he had bribed those junkers to let him stay near their base, considering they aren't direct enemies.
But it is really oorp for those hunters to be killing the junkers right next to their base and for them to be docking on them. And sorry to say this Baltar but sig 13 has been like this for a while, and it won't be getting better anytime soon. New York in my opinion is alot better, hardly any cap ships around anymore with the new laws in place. You got the powertraders, oorp bounty hunter cap ships, and oorp pirate cap ships in sig 13. Just about everyone in that system is a little missed up(except maybe the GMG guys, they seemed alright in the few chances i ran across them).
And also why was a order battleship in sig 13? That to me seems worse than those hunters wasting a few junkers.
Well Recon ... read up on the Junker Infocard I included below. My point here is that you cannot be both friendly and hostile to the Junkers. Junkers are more aligned closer to unlawfuls than lawfuls. Read up on the difference between a Trader ID and a Smuggler ID. They are both traders ... but their loyalties are different.
And yes ... Sigma 13 has been very OORP ... read what I wrote above. And I've had the Black Pearl there for quite a long time. Traders power trading through hostile pirate space (which should be too hostile even for a bounty hunter) is a bit OORP. Yes ... Sigma 13, Chugoku and Hokkaido are hostile pirate infested systems. As such ... you should expect the pirates to have the upper hand. Just as you'd expect a house system like New Berlin and New York to be heavily defended by the navies, security forces and police. In the outer systems and the independent systems, pirates and unlawfuls have the upper hand.
Junkers can fully hire Bounty Hunters. Like another person said (in another thread)
Junkers and BH can be friendly, that is a personal thing. Some Junkers WOULD
hire BH. Some BH would hang out at Junker bases.
Junkers ARE NOT CRIMINALS. We operate in the grey areas. Police are
"friendly" with us or turn a blind eye (if the Junker RP's right.)
Same with Bounty Hunters, we may levy bounties on other unlawfuls.
If a BH is a known Junker hunter then, No, he had better NOT dock on
Junker bases, He would disappear and his ship would be turned to other
uses. But you cannot expect to put a blanket ban on Bounty Hunters
docking at Junker bases! That is being unreasonable.
In your case, Yes it's not right, but I don't like your suggested "fix".
Yes, Pirates shouldnt hang around lawful Planets. Yes, Lawfuls shouldnt
hang around Unlawful bases. But the problem is Junkers AND Bounty
Hunters both work in the grey areas, and its up to the individuals to RP
properly. "Properly" is also quite subjective here because as I said...
I can see some Junkers and some Bounty Hunters getting along quite
nicely. In the same breathe I can say, without contradicting myself,
that some BH should not EVER hang around Junker bases.
It depends on the history and RP that has already been created.
Edit: Because its such a difficult and grey area, I dont think situations like
this can be sanctionable, rather they should be dealt with by the Junker family.
(But seeing as how people shot down the Junker Congress....)
Or here's another thing you can do. Lodge a complaint with the BHG.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
First ... read up more on Bounty Hunters ... their infocard explicitly forbids them from operating on the wrong side of the law. Bounty Hunters are lawful ... they are NOT on the fence. You are thinking of Mercenaries. Bounty Hunters are FORBIDDEN to work for unlawfuls. Bounty Hunters are lawful ... they are not neutral and thus not in the gray area.
Second ... you cannot have SOME Bounty Hunters friendly with Junkers and others hostile. This creates chaos and becomes abusive.
Third ... NPCs cannot hire PC bounty hunters ... period. Lets please keep these separate. The bounty hunter I'm referring to claimed the NPC Junkers hired him. In fact ... I had pirated his trade vessel earlier and he came back in his bounty hunter battle cruiser to take revenge.
Fourth ... Bounty Hunters are an abusive PVP whoring group as a whole. You wanna get them in line ... please do ... I'd like to see the Bounty Hunter ID limit them to gunboats.
Fifth ... I don't care if bounty hunters are in Sigma 13 ... that's fine ... just don't park near Yanagi. When I take my pirate into a house system ... I stay at LEAST 5k away from any planet or base.
Sixth ... lets not be hypocrites here ... I hate this do as I say not as I do bit. We are either all following the same rules or the rules mean nothing. You cannot operate on one set of rules for good guys and a completely different set for bad guys.
Once again ... bounty hunters CANNOT participate in ANY unlawful act ... this includes accepting bounties from unlawfuls.
Sure, a Junker :might: want to hire a bounty hunter...
As soon as the hunter steps foot on a Junker base, he/she would be killed rather quickly by the other inhabitants on the base. If a Bounty Hunter battlecruiser tried to dock with a Junker depot, it's likely the pirate scum would try and take it over or something along those lines.
' Wrote:If I can respond to something Hyuung said:
Sure, a Junker :might: want to hire a bounty hunter...
As soon as the hunter steps foot on a Junker base, he/she would be killed rather quickly by the other inhabitants on the base. If a Bounty Hunter battlecruiser tried to dock with a Junker depot, it's likely the pirate scum would try and take it over or something along those lines.
Valid point here ... Junkers are friends with all sorts of unlawfuls. If you go to the job board ... pretty much all the jobs are against either Xenos or Bounty Hunters. And the guys sitting in the bar are of all sorts of unlawful backgrounds.
Answer this question Hyuung ... WHY would a Junker hire ANYONE to kill his friends?
EDIT: You don't maintain your neutrality by hiring bounty hunters and mercenaries.
.. Eh, I gotta agree with the original poster and say that Sigma 13 has been in a state of decadence as of late..
.. My Junker's smuggling route takes me right through the Sigmas and almost every single time I pass through, I see BH GB's and other various capitol ships loafing right near Yanagi and they're usually harrassing smaller ships. It's also very common to see petty OOC arguments occur there between various Corsairs/Blood Dragons/BH pilots. Bear in mind, it is for these reasons that I do not loaf at Yanagi (ever), I only pass through that system, entering and exiting within a timeframe of only five minutes yet I'm always seeing things like this.
.. Anyway, whichever BH said that he was hired by a Junker to attack Junkers was either lying, or whoever hired him is RP'ing somewhat inaccurately:
Quote:Anyone who deals with Junkers knows they live by a strict code; if you're not a Junker, you're not part of the family. A Junker will double-cross you without a second thought, and they're fiercely protective of each other. Most House corporations consider the Junkers to be simple criminals, but Junkers will occasionally do favors for the police, turning in the odd, mid-level criminal or letting them know about the occasional drug shipment. So despite some harassment, the police stop short of shutting them down. The infrequent police cleanup operations are little more than exercises in public relations, though there\'s no love lost between the two groups.
Moreover, Bounty Hunters aren't able to accept bounties from unlawful individuals, this is what separates them from being mercenaries. This is also what keeps them employed throughout the various Houses, since there's no way a place like Liberty or Bretonia would allow them to be there in full force if they had no credibility. They hunt criminals, and while it is true that many Junkers have shady dealings, there are also many who're totally innocent and/or have never committed crimes that would warrant execution. Some Junkers are petty thieves/scavengers, whereas others are smugglers, and some others may be assassins. There's also plenty of genuinely innocent Junkers.
.. I'm really hoping they nerf the Bounty Hunter ID/class of ships/faction in general in the next release, because it really is starting to seem like atleast 50% of all my negative experiences are a result of this faction. I don't mean to start a flamewar or anything like that, I'm aware that there are good Bounty Hunter roleplayers out there n' such, I'm only calling things as they are, honestly. I should also add that any player who would act like a bratty wanker would do so regardless of what ID or faction he has chosen, and that this problem isn't Bounty Hunter specific. It's just that Bounty Hunters are given so much jurisdiction and they've a nice shipline and so that makes things convenient for such buffoonery.
It'd be nice if ADMIN's starting camping Sigma 13, or something.
My god, this looks like its going to be messy. Alrighty Baltar since you challenged me,
I'll answer, but not to satisfy your first post nor your thirst to ban all BH from Junker bases.
First a disclaimer. Baltar, I have seen you Roleplay quite well, so understand that I have
quite a bit of respect for you as a Role player. You play your pirate VERY well. So, the
following is seeking to understand, but it will be strongly opinionated and may come across
as personally attacking. That is not my intent.
I'll be reordering the quotes as they are relevant.
' Wrote:Hyung Soong:
First ... read up more on Bounty Hunters ... their infocard explicitly forbids them from operating on the wrong side of the law. Bounty Hunters are lawful ... they are NOT on the fence. You are thinking of Mercenaries. Bounty Hunters are FORBIDDEN to work for unlawfuls. Bounty Hunters are lawful ... they are not neutral and thus not in the gray area.
I agree. BH are Lawful. They are on the Lawful side. They cannot work for Unlawfuls. Mercs are on the unlawful side. I was not confusing the two when I said what I did.
Quote:Second ... you cannot have SOME Bounty Hunters friendly with Junkers and others hostile. This creates chaos and becomes abusive.
Yes, it does. All freedoms create that same chaotic abusive state, because it is up to the individual to do whatever appropriately. In this case those BH did not, and you are annoyed at them.
Quote:Third ... NPCs cannot hire PC bounty hunters ... period. Lets please keep these separate. The bounty hunter I'm referring to claimed the NPC Junkers hired him. In fact ... I had pirated his trade vessel earlier and he came back in his bounty hunter battle cruiser to take revenge.
That was not stated in the first post (but it is in your second - post #5). I'm not assuming that NPC's can do that. When I say Junkers can hire BH Im only talking about Players. Those BH are quite silly for having said that the Junkers hired them to kill other Junkers. No TRUE Junker would ever do that.
Quote:Fourth ... Bounty Hunters are an abusive PVP whoring group as a whole. You wanna get them in line ... please do ... I'd like to see the Bounty Hunter ID limit them to gunboats.
You are reacting to the situation that you found yourself in. You are actually not correct that the BH are all PVP whores. I know and have met plenty of players who understand what the role of a BH is and they do not "PVP whore". You are out of line in saying all BH are abusive PVP whores, and blanket putting people in a box. That is unacceptable, even if you are upset.
Quote:Fifth ... I don't care if bounty hunters are in Sigma 13 ... that's fine ... just don't park near Yanagi. When I take my pirate into a house system ... I stay at LEAST 5k away from any planet or base.
That fair enough. But, Junkers are different. That what this discussion keeps coming back to. A misunderstanding of Junker Roleplay, and of Bounty hunter Roleplay.
Quote:Sixth ... lets not be hypocrites here ... I hate this do as I say not as I do bit. We are either all following the same rules or the rules mean nothing. You cannot operate on one set of rules for good guys and a completely different set for bad guys.
Are you calling me a hypocrite or the unfairness that you have been subjected to of the complaints of OORP lawfuls camping unlawful bases being ignored?
And on one level, I do agree that we cannot operate to different rules for both groups. But on another level I disagree, because the two group DO operate differently (or should.) Lawfuls aren't allowed to pirate, but they can extort apparently. I don't like that. But then im limiting the RP potential of a cops role by saying that. There are good cops and corrupt cops. I can't say (and neither can you) only good cops are allowed on the server.
Quote:Once again ... bounty hunters CANNOT participate in ANY unlawful act ... this includes accepting bounties from unlawfuls.
This again is a misunderstanding of the Junker Roleplay. Junkers are not Unlawfuls. They are Semi-legal. There are many "lawful" Junkers i.e. who haven't done any crime in their lives. There are other Junkers who are extremely against any Lawful interference. There are also others who operate in the grey areas, of doing things illegal, but usually don't get caught - who also take jobs from th epolice and what not.
' Wrote:If I can respond to something Hyuung said:
Sure, a Junker :might: want to hire a bounty hunter...
As soon as the hunter steps foot on a Junker base, he/she would be killed rather quickly by the other inhabitants on the base. If a Bounty Hunter battlecruiser tried to dock with a Junker depot, it's likely the pirate scum would try and take it over or something along those lines.
Agreed. I would caution any BH player to NOT dock on any Junker Base. However, I can see certain RP situations where "on good terms" Bounty Hunters can dock on a Junker base and stay in their ships or not go far onbase. But seeing as FL is based around space combat, it's very hard to RP that kind of thing ingame.
' Wrote:Valid point here ... Junkers are friends with all sorts of unlawfuls. If you go to the job board ... pretty much all the jobs are against either Xenos or Bounty Hunters. And the guys sitting in the bar are of all sorts of unlawful backgrounds.
Answer this question Hyuung ... WHY would a Junker hire ANYONE to kill his friends?
EDIT: You don't maintain your neutrality by hiring bounty hunters and mercenaries.
What about all the OTHER pirates and Criminals who have pirated or killed Junkers? I wouldn't call them
"Friends". Your argument works both ways, as there have been Junkers pirated. What do we do then? Most
Junkers aren't strong enough to take on a single pirate. So what are our options? Hire someone to take
care of them.
I think its time that Pirates AND Bounty Hunters learned to take Junkers seriously. You tell me.
Why would a CRIMINAL pirate a Junker, when we are their backbone of movement?
When they need us for their equipment, and safe houses?
Why are people trying to keep the RP static? Why can't there be Bounty Hunters that are on good terms
with Junkers? Why can't there be innocent Junkers? Why can't there be Bounty Hunters that take bounties
from a Junker, against another Criminal who has done the Junker wrong?
I'll tell you why. Because you are looking at the LETTER of the ID / faction law, rather than at the RP Spirit.
THAT is what upsets me, when people focus only on their own narrow view of how their and everyone else's
RP should be.
There are corrupt cops. There are Good cops. There are hardline cops. There are cops who hate what they
have to do, but they do it well. There are cops who can't sleep because of what they have done in the name
of duty. There are cops who have left the police work to go unlawful. There are pirates who like trading.
There are pirates who are sophisticated, and speak proper English. There are pirates who like to go "Arrrrr!
Matey". There are pirates who don't talk much. There are pirates who talk too much. There are pirates who
have family on the lawful side. There are Junkers who do nothing illegal. There are Junkers who do
everything illegal. There are Junkers who work hard at being impartial and neutral to EVERYONE - including
Xenos. There are Rogues who ship Cardimine but don't take the stuff. There are Rogues who pirate based
on a ratio of how good / expensive this traders ship is. There are Rogues who "blanket 1-2 Mil".
Why should we limit the RolePlay potential, by making MORE server rules and Bans, just so you can stop
OoRP Bounty Hunters who don't know how to RP a BH Properly? Why don't you move away from Sig 13?
You KNOW it's OoRP haven at the mo, so why go there?
' Wrote:It seems some players do not understand the role of being a Bounty Hunter.
This is what it boils down to. But I strongly disagree that ALL BH should suffer because of some twits in Sig 13.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
' Wrote:Well if you really want to get down to it junkers aren't really unlawful. I mean they are to a degree but no junker would go and attack a hunter outright and nether should the reverse happen. So really in rp terms a bounty hunter could say that he had bribed those junkers to let him stay near their base, considering they aren't direct enemies.
But it is really oorp for those hunters to be killing the junkers right next to their base and for them to be docking on them. And sorry to say this Baltar but sig 13 has been like this for a while, and it won't be getting better anytime soon. New York in my opinion is alot better, hardly any cap ships around anymore with the new laws in place. You got the powertraders, oorp bounty hunter cap ships, and oorp pirate cap ships in sig 13. Just about everyone in that system is a little missed up(except maybe the GMG guys, they seemed alright in the few chances i ran across them).
And also why was a order battleship in sig 13? That to me seems worse than those hunters wasting a few junkers.
Careful generalizeing. I am a cap in Sigma 13 often. I fight the BHG when they come and do my best to defend the Junkers. Plus the Order could very easily been there to hunt wild. Plus there are some Order members that I have ongoing RP with that may come to Yanagi from time to time to exchange news and goods.
Theres mud to be had but lets not start throwing everyone in it exspecially when by your own words your not there much, please.
Not trying to start a pissing contest just saying these comments can be more trouble than they are worth.
Now I have read all this and all I can say is wow. i see some new folk misuseing thier ships there but, I see that every where.
I too have seen Baltar RP and think its strong but, I think this is better addressed by fixing the players in question and not accuseing all BHG of PVP whoreing. In fact most BHG I fight, I start it. Lawful camping outside a Junker base is bad for bussiness no matter how you look at it.
If you have BHG battleships gunboat and bombers outside the window then Outcast dont like to bring thier cardi and Corsairs dont like to bring thier artifacts. Not to mention Junkers like thier privacy.
Privacy is how they get away with thier bussiness and stay quasi legal. Lawfuls camping Junker bases can just as easily scan and transmit and then make all Junkers fall under the unlawful catagory as thier installations would then not be known as scrap collectors but hives of scum and villany.
Plus I pity the BHG crew that lands on Yanagi with Harvester ground troops aboard that station and the many ships docked can build them quick, fast, and in a hurry. BHG are on the menu currently.
To put it simply its hard to run a whore house if the cops are pulling security.
I'm not being personal in my posts. At least I'm not intending it to be. Thanks for the complements ... I'm not sure who your characters are ... hard to keep track but I'm sure they've been good encounters.
For the discussion at hand:
#1 ... Mercs are actually neutral and can take either lawful or unlawful. My only point is that BH are lawful and thus should not "act" unlawfully.
#2 ... This is what causes frustration ... if some BH hate Junkers and some BH like Junkers then Junkers cannot trust BH and Junkers will be hostile to ALL BH. Just take a look at what the SA did when Mercs were taking bounties on lawfuls in NY. They placed a ban on ALL Mercs. This is what will happen when "some" BH go hostile to the Junkers ... the ENTIRE Junker community will no longer trust ANY BH and thus ban ALL BH. Think about it ... would you trust a group that is unpredictable?
#3 ... Black Pearl is an independent pirate (not a Junker) ... he was the one attacked ... and his role play is that he LIVES on Yanagi and is closely aligned with the Junkers while not quite a full Junker. Black Pearl despises traders passing through the New Berlin and Chugoku jump holes as well as traders carrying military equipment and prisoners. The Black Pearl spends about 90% of the time in Sigma 13 and wants Sigma 13 to remain an independent system. 95% of all piracy done by Black Pearl is inside Sigma 13 itself and the other 5% is in neighboring systems (when the target runs outside Sigma 13).
#4 ... Yes yes ... I have met a few BH who've done a good job role playing BH ... BUT ... those BH that enter Sigma 13 are not these good role playing hunters. DW has proven over time to be good hunters as have a couple others. I've run into a few BH who are in gunships, fighters and bombers ... all good role play. But those that get the battle cruisers (not just the BH battle cruiser either) are the one's I've had the most trouble with. Sorry about the blanket stereotype ... but these bad apples are spoiling the whole BH community.
#5 ... Its not just Yanagi. Although this is my primary complaint ... they also hang around Rochester and other bases. I've even seen them at Alcatraz (Rogue) and Arranmore (Molly). Heck I even saw one undocking from Kyoto Base (Blood Dragon).
Hypocrisy: This was not directed at you. Note the word I used was "lets" which is a contraction combining "let" and "us" or "let us". This comment was directed at Disco as an entire community. And what I'm referring to is NOT role play limitations. I'm talking about the artificial limitations or restrictions placed on certain character types by the server rules. Pirates and Mercenaries are limited to gunboats and smaller while Bounty Hunters can have pretty much any ship they have the money to buy. And the hypocrisy I speak of is that lawfuls get breaks that unlawfuls do not. You've read Del's comment above. He pretty much dismissed my complaint without consideration. Have you ever participated in intramural sports where the referee called penalties for one side more harshly than the other? I'm not saying Del is an unfair ref. But I do wish people would take this a bit more seriously. There are bounty hunters (and others) out there that are stretching (loopholing) the rules to their favor.
My argument is not and never was about Junker role play. The issue at hand has to do with Bounty Hunters getting away with murder and everyone ignoring it. Had this discussion been about an Outcast, Corsair or Order battleship (or whatever capship you like) sitting less than 1k from the Manhattan docking ring and farming Liberty Police NPCs I'm sure there would be an outrage. Heck ... it doesn't even have to be at Manhattan. Imagine this at Riverside Police Station in California. I HAVE heard that complaint before.
Now then ... you mention Junkers are neutral and should be open for both Bounty Hunters and unlawfuls. This is the same as any Freeport (Zoners). I completely stopped pirating with any of my characters near Freeports for this reason. Reason is a few Zoners mentioned its bad for business and I like keeping good relations with Zoners (since they are neutral). That being said ... shouldn't the same respect be given at Junker bases? If we expect Freeports to be a safe haven for all vessels ... a sort of no fire zone ... then the same should be expected from Bounty Hunters near a Junker base. Otherwise ... Freeports can no longer be expected to be free from my activities.
As for pirates and criminals killing Junkers? Never heard of that happening. But rest assured they would become enemies of me very soon. And I would consider a pirate a bit OORP for doing so. Junkers are the only one's I know that sell the Smuggler ID. And smugglers support pirates and other criminals. Mercs would be hired ... not bounty hunters. Yes ... I hire mercs. Hunters ... even if I tried ... would not likely accept my jobs. Considering I would hire a bounty hunter to take out a house military vessel in Sigma 13 that shouldn't be there (*cough* Kusari *cough*). RM has adopted a policy within their faction to NOT enter Sigma 13 ... I thank them for that. The KNF have not adopted such a policy ... even though I've made several pleas with them to do so.
Quote:I think its time that Pirates AND Bounty Hunters learned to take Junkers seriously. You tell me.
Why would a CRIMINAL pirate a Junker, when we are their backbone of movement?
When they need us for their equipment, and safe houses?
I have a couple Junkers. And Black Pearl is closer to Junkers than any other faction. I've got a Merc who's fairly neutral (with exception to Mandalorian declared hostiles). Trust me ... Junkers are probably my characters best friends. Junkers, Zoners, Smugglers and other unlawfuls are not pirated by me. There are pirates that do ... and I do not hang out with them. BTW ... you mentioned not stereotyping BH ... how bout lets not do that to Pirates (which is what happens constantly).
Quote:Why are people trying to keep the RP static? Why can't there be Bounty Hunters that are on good terms
with Junkers? Why can't there be innocent Junkers? Why can't there be Bounty Hunters that take bounties
from a Junker, against another Criminal who has done the Junker wrong?
Because it gets abused and leads to loopholing. Creative role play is good role play ... but there must be some line that cannot be crossed. For example ... a bounty hunter flying a Lane Hacker gunship is too much. People are ALWAYS giving pirates a hard time about their guns. Here's something about gunboat turrets ... there are NO pirate gunboat turrets ... there are NO Rogue gunboat turrets ... I do hope in the upcoming mod that they create more gunboat turrets cause you can pretty much buy any gunboat turret on just about any base.
Quote:I'll tell you why. Because you are looking at the LETTER of the ID / faction law, rather than at the RP Spirit.
THAT is what upsets me, when people focus only on their own narrow view of how their and everyone else's
RP should be.
Yeah ... heard that ... tried that argument. Now explain why a Liberty Rogue ID is pinned down in and around Liberty? If you see a Liberty Rogue ID'd vessel pirating in Rheinland you'll get OOC screams in system chat and likely get a violation report. But ... see a house cruiser outside their house and nobody says a word. I hate double standards.
Quote:Why should we limit the RolePlay potential, by making MORE server rules and Bans, just so you can stop
OoRP Bounty Hunters who don't know how to RP a BH Properly? Why don't you move away from Sig 13?
You KNOW it's OoRP haven at the mo, so why go there?
This is what it boils down to. But I strongly disagree that ALL BH should suffer because of some twits in Sig 13.
I'm not saying make new rules ... I'm saying enforce those that we already have. AND ... don't apply constricting rules on one group while letting another run free of any restrictions.